Margaret Atwood: You most likely need a thesaurus, a rudimentary grammar book, and a grip on reality.
Roddy Doyle: Do keep a thesaurus, but in the shed at the back of the garden or behind the fridge, somewhere thatJ. M. Barrie had a soft spot for it. Here's how he describes the villainous Captain Hook in Peter Pan:demands travel or effort. Chances are the words that come into your head will do fine, e.g. 'horse,' 'ran,' 'said.
The first draft of the first Thesaurus was completed in 1805. But Dr.The man is not wholly evil - he has a Thesaurus in his cabin
Peter Mark Roget, the philologist, scientist, physician who put it together, kept it for decades as a secret project. He didn't publish it until 1852. I imagine him like Gollum, murmuring My Preciouss and stroking the pages all those years when he kept it to himself. Since 1852 it's never been out of print. Here's a page from the original manuscript which is among the holidngs of the Karpeles Manuscript Library Museums.
Recently, I was at a writing conference this year, listening to a writer who advised us not to go looking for words in the thesaurus. The best words, he said, were right there at our fingertips. I appreciated the caution, and I eschew words like utilize when instead of use, and lie sounds a lot more natural than prevaricate. I never want to put a word on the page that jumps up and down shouting "AUTHOR AUTHOR!"
However, as I tried to explain to him, I don't go to the thesaurus for fancy words. I go there to find the words I’ve misplaced... and these days there are more and more of them. I did not expect him, a 40-something, to understand how that goes.
What's your feeling about the Thesaurus?
JENN McKINLAY: I love the thesaurus! It could be the librarian in me who values ALL the reference books but I actually use the thesaurus quite a bit. Not to sound more literary in my writing - because, hello, this is me, the person who makes up words like "shrinkle" and had a knock down drag out fight with a copyeditor to let me keep it - but rather to get my brain stretching and reaching in new and different ways when I feel as if I can't quite describe something the way I want.
HANK PHILLIPPI RYAN: I love the Thesaurus, too! I use it to...hone the word. Peter Abrahams talks about how a writer can know a word is "agonizingly close" to the correct word, but not exactly the right word...and doesn't that happen? So when that happens to me (every day!) I use the thesaurus to pick the word that's most like the one I really mean. Then I click on that selection, and see what the sort-of-synonyms for that words are, and see if I can get closer. And do that until I find it. Although. I have to say that often I just stick with the one I thought of first. But I do sometimes find words I've totally forgotten, and for that, I am grateful.
(Sidebar: So often when I find the better word, turns out it's an alliteration of the word it modifies. Is it only me? Why is this, if it happens to you?) (If not, never mind.)
LUCY BURDETTE: I went to the thesaurus this morning because I found I'd used the word "crowded" twice in one paragraph. Here's what came up: congested, crushed, cramped, overcrowded, full, filled to capacity, full to bursting, overfull, overflowing, teeming, swarming, thronged, populous, overpopulated, overpeopled, busy. I chose "cramped" because it sounded like a word Hayley Snow would be using to describe the houseboat.But this makes me wonder, do you use a hard-copy thesaurus or simply Google the word in question?
RHYS BOWEN: I have a great book at home in California. It's called Word--something. And I can't remember what. But it's a great thesaurus-like book with cross referencing that makes it extra useful. I went on Amazon to see if I could find it but instead I found something called Naughty Words for Nice Writers. I think I have to have that!
I don't often resort to a Thesaurus. If I can't come up with a word I wander around muttering to myself, trying out alternatives, or, finally resorting to yelling to John, "What's another word for xxx?"
DEBORAH CROMBIE: I love the thesaurus, too, but I don't use it to find fancier words--it's for dealing with those infernal repetitions. Or sometimes if I just can't quite get the right word. Or the missing words, as Hallie said, which happen more often than I'd like these days.
I usually use the one in Dictionary.com, but I miss the days when I kept a paperback thesaurus right by my keyboard.
HALLIE: So, where do you go when you need to find a word?
I have a wonderful little book called “20,000 Words” that’s simply a list of words. It’s great fun just to read, but not particularly helpful if I can’t quite grasp the word I’m trying to find. As Hank pointed out, the thesaurus is great for finding that word; dictionaries are pretty cool, too . . . .
ReplyDeleteIn 20,000 words, how are the words organized? Do you just open to a random page and read, or do you have to start on page 1? Fascinated.
DeleteOh that sounds wonderful! I have lists of words all around my desk, just words I randomly hear —the times I and think oh, I haven’t thought about “ gossamer” for a while!
DeleteThe word list is alphabetical.
DeleteI’d never seen a book like this [I found it at a church rummage sale], but according to the information, it’s been updated and published since 1934; the one I have is the sixth edition.
The book also includes a reference section with general grammar/writing information and a “Homonyms and Similar Words” list. Although that list includes very brief definitions, the book refers to itself as a “dictionary without definitions” . . . .
I guess it’s no surprise to other people who like to read that the Thesaurus was one of my favorite books when I was growing up.(Would you believe that Autocorrect just changed the word “was” to “ceased”?) I have no memory of when my parents bought it. For all I know, it was a wedding present! It was one of the most well-worn books in their collection. I think I was in second grade when I first started referring to it. At times throughout my childhood I would flip through the pages just to see the WORDS. Today I use the on-line one but if I get ambitious enough, I may go through my bookcases and my boxes of books to see if I have Mom’s and Dad’s Thesaurus.
ReplyDeleteDebRo
Goodness, sounds like Autocorrect has a death wish for you. (It just tried to change Goodness to Good news.) And I remember our old red-covered copy of Roget's Thesaurus.
DeleteYes, I read my thesaurus so much as a kid that the paper cover came off. I’d love to find that… and remember, weren’t they arranged by logic? It wasn’t alphabetical it was by… What was it, I can’t remember what the theory of it was.
DeleteI looked it up :-) it’s by concepts! 1. Abstract matter 2. Space 3. Matter and so forth. It’s truly fascinating !
DeleteHank, I may be misremembering , but I believe the early editions of Roget's didn't have an index. You just had to drill down by concept to find the broader categories, then the words.
DeleteYes, I think that's right. And SO much fun!
DeleteI have a thesaurus but for some reason it doesn't seem complete. Maybe because it's a paperback? I'm the kind of person who notices when a word is used twice in the same paragraph or even on the same page. I think those kind of things should have been picked up in editing, but what do I know.
ReplyDeleteRecently I did an online defensive driving course which was incredibly boring. But maybe they were trying. There was a part where they stressed the importance of keeping clear of an auto accident because "gasoline is prevalent and may cause a fire." Good to know. I asked myself why did they not just use "present".
OH, dear, imagine the poor writer who came up with that line. Prevalent? Doesn't even make sense. Though I appreciate the economy of it. This is where an annoying editor might have tagged it: Please explain
DeleteThe course was probably written by a current or former police officer. Cops are the worst when it comes to using words that sound cop-like. If you've ever read a police report, or listened to these guys testify in court, their language is peppered with this stuff. When I first started writing, I had to really school myself in avoiding these types of words, because you're bombarded with them from day one at the academy.
DeleteRobin, I know that's how they write reports... but do they TALK that way, too?
DeleteYou are so right: that sort of thing should be caught in editing.
ReplyDeleteWinston Churchill’s speeches were so effective because he used good old Anglo-Saxon words.
ReplyDeleteThis discussion gets to the root of why I enjoy the Reds blog so much. I love words. I have loved words for as long as I can remember. But I learned at a fairly young age that not everyone shares that love, and having a robust vocabulary is not universally respected as an asset. I thoroughly enjoy hanging out here with a bunch of other people who love words and are driven by a desire to find just the right one.
ReplyDeleteQuick anecdote: I had a colleague who was 25 years my junior, but we bonded over our shared breadth of vocabulary and joy in using just the right word. He recently left to take a better job elsewhere, and in my farewell to him I remarked on how much I would miss having one other person in the office with whom I never felt the need to "dumb down" my vocabulary. The very first day he was gone, another colleague (a person I ADORE for many non-vocabulary-related reasons) was in my office. I used the word "sardonic" in conversation and he jokingly said to his phone "Siri, look up sardonic." The second he left, I texted the former colleague to tell him how much I missed him. So thank you, Reds, for being there for me every day with all the right words!
And how much fun is it when you encounter a word you HAVEN'T seen before.
DeleteI have a hard copy of Roget's thesaurus and it gets a lot of use. For most of the reasons listed. When the word I have is close, but not what I need. When I've lost a word. When I've repeated a word too often. Best use, though, was in editing works translated from Chinese--um, there's a sense of what the right word must be--just takes trolling the thesaurus to parse the meaning and hit that eureka moment when you find the key to sense-making.
ReplyDeleteSo, Flora, do you SPEAK Chinese? If not, how would you (as editor) KNOW what would be the best *cognate* (if that's the right word for it) to choose for what the author intended?
DeleteHallie, no, I don't speak Chinese. In a sense, I was working one step away from the author--trying to interpret what the translator had put down on the page. While the translators were supposed to be proficient in English, their choice of words could leave you scratching your head--and by using the thesaurus I could often hit upon phrasing that would work in the context of the paragraph, the sentence, the subject under discussion.
DeleteAnd speaking of the right word, I find myself sitting at intersections reading the sign: 'Stop here to actuate the signal.' And my mind immediately says: 'Activate, activate the signal'. I've read the definition of both words, and I don't know if one is more correct than the other--but 'actuate' just SOUNDS wrong to me.
ReplyDeleteactuate definition: to cause a machine to operate
Deleteactivate: make something active or operative
So meaning-wise, either is correct. BUT when you look at how often they turn up in a google search:
actuate: 4Million+
activate: 1.5Billion
Maybe there's another light pole nearby that didn't want its sign repeated?
on-line thesaurus for word repetitions and an emotion thesaurus for body language.
ReplyDeleteEmotion thesaurus?!?
DeleteMargaret, can you expand on that? That sounds like something I'd very much like to see.
Deleteditto
DeleteYes, me, too! That is my biggest hurdle in writing, trying to find body language to convey things, without using the same gestures or movements all the time. Much worse than finding words!!
DeleteHere's a link to the Emotion Thesaurus on Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/Emotion-Thesaurus-Writers-Character-Expression-ebook/dp/B00822WM2M/ref=pd_typ_k_rtpb_1_154606011_1/132-6007493-3006644?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=1FRWP8W04582ERREMAEW
DeleteAnd a companion book called Emotion Amplifiers is on sale on Kindle for #.99.
Ackerman and Puglisi, The Emotion Thesaurus: a writer's guide to character expression lists emotions like "humiliation" with physical signals, internal sensations, mental responses, cues of long-term and cues of suppressed humiliation.
DeleteAckerman and Puglisi, The Emotional Wound Thesaurus: A writer's Guide to Psychological Trauma. Lists situations like "Being rejected by one's peers." Examples, basic needs compromised, false beliefs that could be embraced, the character may fear..., possible responses and results, personality traits that may form, triggers that might aggravate this wound opportunities to face or overcome this wound.
I attended a small workshop with romance writers, who swore by the books.
I treasure both thesaurus and dictionaries. I read my mom's college dictionary, because she stopped defining words for me. Words like heliotrope, and peregrine, olligarch, et al became part of me. Later at University I studied linguistics. My beloved reference books were useful in showing how language evolves over time, (fer sure --circa 1960's).
ReplyDeleteI love my cohorts here, hanging with the word smiths, who use precision while creating their worlds.
My mother was a word maven, too. Shades of meaning mattered. If I asked "Can I go out," she's say "You can, but you may not." :-p
DeleteHallie, my mother did that as well. Now I do it to my kids (along with correcting them from "me and her" to "she and I"._ Drives them CRAZY as it did me - but I remain convinced t's better to use the language correctly.
DeleteJulia, I think we're fighting a losing battle on the "me-I" front. The incorrect usage is so common now that I think it's grown into the language. It drives me crazy, but I have to admit I've even had characters use it in dialogue, because I know that's what they would say...
DeleteWords are treasures, and the perfect word is priceless. Vocabulary makes all the difference in perceived intelligence, in my opinion. A rich store of language, used in daily life or in literature, is important to me, and I am alarmed at the idea of avoiding the use of evocative descriptions, especially in writing.
ReplyDeleteJust compare the speeches of the last four Presidents, for instance. Sure, someone else wrote them, but the ease with which they were delivered depended on each speaker's fluency of language. It would be very sad to see every speech, book, or article written sparely and without "big words", in my opinion. Personally, I enjoy being challenged to think harder.
Churchill may have used good old Anglo-Saxon words, but they had more than a single syllable.
Here's 2 of my favorite Churchill quotes, somehow appropriate for our time as well:
Delete“Nothing makes a man more reverent than a library.” —1921
“You must look at facts because they look at you.” —1925
I do use Word's built-in thesaurus but what I'm really addicted to is the Oxford English Dictionary. I go there to find a definition and half an hour later I'm still happily reading the etymology, first historical use of the word, and looking at similar words. My university has made access even easier by providing a digital version through our library web site. That means at home I no longer have to pull out the two-volume edition (in its own case with a magnifying glass!). At work I no longer have to walk from my office to the copier room to find the multi-volume full-sized print version.
ReplyDeleteHi. My name is Cathy and I'm an OEDaholic.
Welcome, Cathy!
DeleteOh, I adore the OED!
DeleteCathy, I seriously considered paying $$$ to subscribe to the OED.
DeleteJulia, it's SO addictive! Does your college have digital access?
DeleteI have two thesaurus, both paperback. One was a gift from my son (The Merriam-Webster) and I don't know how I acquired the second (Roget's II, Office Edition). I prefer these to the online editions.
ReplyDeleteI have a pinterest page where I store lists of alternative words. "90 Words for 'Look'", "Words That Describe Someone's Voice", "The Mater List of Gestures & Body Language." Most of the options offered by these list do scream "Author" but every once in a while they nudge me closer to what I need.
I'm curious. Those of you who read on a Kindle, do you use the dictionary function when there's a word that you don't recognize?
The Pinterest page is a great idea, Lyda!
DeleteI use the Kindle dictionary all the time and love it. Quicker so I can keep on reading!
DeleteI use the kindle dictionary too. And I also tap tap tap on the newspaper and get frustrated because that doesn’t work for print
DeleteJust this week I was thinking about my favorite writers and their words. I think I have a decent vocabulary, and I rarely come across a word I don't understand. However, I have never used "insouciant" in a sentence. Verbal or written. So I wondered where all of you got these huge vocabularies! I grew up in a house full of all sorts of books, and I always had access to reference books. But the only time I think to use a thesaurus is when I'm writing a bit of doggerel for someone's birthday.
ReplyDeleteI continue to be amazed and impressed by writers. Thank you for keeping me entertained. And happy.
From reading! And I think you also have to be blessed with an aptitude for words. Which is why some words get mispronounced. Forte. Is not pronounced fortay. Unless you're talking about musically loud. And I remember being surprised when I hear someone pronounce ptarmigan. We live near next to the city of Quincy, MA - and I cam always tell an out-of-towner when they pronounce it Quinssee. (It's Quinzee)
DeletePtarmigan, now there's another word I've never spoken in my entire life! I do know how to pronounce it though. How I love you Hallie.
DeleteThat's the problem with having learned words from reading. So often I know what they mean but have never heard them spoken.
DeleteWe once went birding looking for ptarmigans.
DeleteIf a word’s pronunciation is unfamiliar I google it and listen.
DeleteThis is making me think of something I just ... recycled. It was a dictionary, about 6" thick, that my husband's family had acquired in chunks probably back in the 50s. Talk about doorstop. I'm counting on my husband not noticing it's gone missing.
ReplyDeleteWhen things go missing we blame the pixies.
DeleteLOL - recycled. Didn't need the thesaurus for that one, did you? ;-)
DeleteAgreed with everyone here who uses the thesaurus to find synonyms to avoid the dread "word appears three times in the same paragraph. Nowadays I mostly use online, but I have several bound thesauri which make for delightful browsing.
ReplyDeleteAnd I just read that Thesaurus is from the same root word as Treasure!
ReplyDeleteHow fantastic! Makes sense... But how far back does it go, and who made up the word, because there wasn't one (was there?) until Roget wrote one.
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ReplyDeleteWhat a fun discussion! Yes, it's the missing words these days. Like Rhys, I consult my husband and he consults me. Together, we make a literate person. (sigh) However,my series narrator would not be using unusual words in her first-person narrative (snark, yes) and I don't use the thesaurus much anymore. What I'd really like is a guide to slang, but it changes too fast for any source I've found to keep up. But wait! Forte is NOT pronounced for-tay except in music? But. But. I learned it in long-ago piano lessons! And I've otherwise been pronouncing it all wrong all these years? (More years than I would admit) Are you sure about this? :-)
ReplyDeleteAll this reminds of my daughter's 3rd grade parent-teacher conference in public school. (She'd been in Montessori from age four through 2nd grade.) Frowning, the teacher looked at me and said, "How does she know so many words???"
ReplyDelete"Um," I said, "We read."
Like Salieri criticizing Mozart for "too many notes"
DeleteLOL - the hooligans have amazing vocabularies from reading and talking about words - not that this is reflected in their GPAs. *sigh*
DeleteI use the right-click version in Word and Scrivener, but I ADORE my 3" thick, well-used paperback of THE SYNONYM FINDER by J.I. Rodale. It's far more comprehensive than anything digital. And the quote on the cover is perfect for it: "I am happy to champion, defend, patronize, espouse, stand up for, recommend, sing the praises of, tout and hype…the new edition of The Synonym Finder.” —William Safire, New York Times
ReplyDeleteLove Safire's blurb that you shared. In fact, though I disagreed with his political columns,I always loved the ones on words and writing. Witty writer
DeleteI do use a thesaurus. Quite often, it's because I've used a word already and I need a synonym, not necessarily a fancier word. Or as Hank says, the word I'm thinking of is almost right, but I know there's a better one.
ReplyDeleteI still have the printed thesaurus I had in college, but these days I use the one on my computer.
xoxo
DeleteI love the thesaurus! And looking words up--when I proofed audiobooks, confirming/correcting pronunciations was a big part of my job, which was great. And, somewhat off topic, I read a review this past weekend for a truly WONDERFUL sounding alphabet book: 'P is for Pterodactyl'. All the starting letters are silent! C is for Czar, etc. I think it sounds adorable.
ReplyDelete-Melanie
It iS! My copy just arrived--I laughed for a solid hour.
DeleteI use the online thesaurus now, and I love it. I agree the best words are the less obscure ones, but sometimes I need a little help thinking of the right one to utilize (that last word's for you, Hallie!).
ReplyDeleteAs I read through today's post, I found myself nodding my head to each of the Reds' comments. Yes, Hallie, I use the thesaurus to find words I've misplaced, and I'm so delighted to find them. Yes, Jenn, I do love reference materials and like to stretch my brain to find new ways of expressing a thought. Yes, Hank, honing the word is exactly what I'm doing, trying to find that apposite choice. Lucy, yes, I've already used a word and need to explore my options. Yes, Rhys, I think I'll have to take a look at Naughty Words for Nice Writers, too. Debs, yes, it's not the fancy words I'm after, just the ones that fit best.
ReplyDeleteI haven't used a physical copy of a thesaurus for years, even though I enjoyed thumbing through the pages just looking at all those amazing choices. I often just google the word for its definition, and synonyms appear with it. I also use the one you use, Hallie, thesaurus.com.
This is turning out to be a very costly post! I've bought the paperback Emotional Thesaurus, and now I want to buy The Synonym Finder!
ReplyDeleteImagine how much fun it would have been to have put together one of those books.
DeleteI carried a paperback copy of Roget's all through junior and senior high in the 60s. We did a lot of writing in English. Now? I holler at my husband or son to find a word for me. Or I just wait until it pops into my head. In the meantime "thingamajig" or "doohickey" works well.
ReplyDeleteAnd I can usual say What's a word that means badly damaged and starts with C? Though I'm not always right about the starting-with part.
DeleteEXACTLY!
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ReplyDeleteI liked being able to find other words when writing papers in high school and college. I wanted to avoid repeating words too many times. Our teachers and professors required that we use a thesaurus.
ReplyDeleteDiana
Rhys - it's THE WORD FINDER.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't be a writer without a thesaurus. I'm old - I don't remember words like I used to! And sometimes I just want to find a different way to say the same thing. I think it makes for more interesting writing. Plus, I HATE when people issue dictums like, never use a thesaurus, only use "said," avoid all adverbs. Sometimes people yell or weep or … insert adverb here.
ReplyDelete