HALLIE EPHRON: Lee McIntyre is a genuine philosopher, one of those amazing people who thinks deeply and systematically, and relishes talking to people who disagree with him. His non-fiction books have taken him far and wide -- Post-Truth(Post-Truth which was
named a Best Book of 2018 on the PBS News Hour), and The Scientific Attitude about pseudoscience and science denial. His op-ed pieces have appeared in publications like The New York Times and he's been an invited speaker at the United Nations.But as long as he's been working on those books, on the side he's been nurturing his first work of crime fiction, The Sin Eater. It's about a high-tech executive who fights back when social services acting on a complaint from a disgruntled nanny, tries to take away his daughter. As any parent will attest, those are high stakes indeed.
Today, celebrating the release of The Sin Eater, we're hosting Lee. And I'm wondering when he decided to let his career fork in two different directions.
LEE MCINTYRE: In 2004, I came to the point in my career where I was either going to make good on my dream of becoming a writer or I wasn't. And if I was going to leap....well why not with both feet?
As
a philosophy professor, I'd written some very twisty, complex essays, but
probably not what you'd call a "page turner." My ambition had always
been to write philosophy for a general audience -- to get others as excited
about philosophy as I was. Non-fiction seemed a good bet and, after some
success with a few books, I finally broke through with a bestseller called
POST-TRUTH (MIT Press, 2018). To say that I hit the "zeitgeist" of
the post-election moment would be an understatement.
But
I harbored a deep secret, for all along I'd also been working on a novel. It's
a little known fact that many philosophers adore crime fiction. Even a genius
like Ludwig Wittgenstein...he ate it up! Maybe it's the mystery. Or the 
fact
that it engaged his brain. Anyway, it's what I read too. Then one day I thought
"how hard can this be?" Well....as it turns out....
fact
that it engaged his brain. Anyway, it's what I read too. Then one day I thought
"how hard can this be?" Well....as it turns out....
Philosophy
played a role here. The kind of suspense that really excites me isn't the six
foot six ex-Green Beret whom you just know is going to cut through people like
butter. Instead, I like the "ordinary guy in extraordinary
circumstances" type of thriller: Joe Finder, Linwood Barclay, Harlen Coben,
and Brad Parks. I want a hero I can identify with, who has to reach deep within
himself to figure out how to do something he never thought possible. For what
stakes? For me it's always family. I teach ethics, but let me tell you: seeing
your family in peril is what would probably make almost anyone cross a moral boundary.
So I got the idea for a thriller called THE SIN EATER, which is about a Dad who has his daughter taken by child protective services, based on a false complaint from the family's new nanny. When the nanny turns up dead, all hell breaks loose and "dad" has to go badass -- hiding out with his friend in a biker club -- to learn how to solve the conspiracy against him and get his daughter back. I'm overjoyed that THE SIN EATER was picked up by Braveship Books and will be published this fall!
So I got the idea for a thriller called THE SIN EATER, which is about a Dad who has his daughter taken by child protective services, based on a false complaint from the family's new nanny. When the nanny turns up dead, all hell breaks loose and "dad" has to go badass -- hiding out with his friend in a biker club -- to learn how to solve the conspiracy against him and get his daughter back. I'm overjoyed that THE SIN EATER was picked up by Braveship Books and will be published this fall!
So
here's the thing everyone wants to know: which is harder to write, fiction or
non-fiction? For me, it's fiction. With non-fiction you're building a wall; with
fiction you're in a snowy field trying to find your way home. I will say that I
think my non-fiction improved as a result of writing fiction. Sometimes what
really convinces people isn't an argument but a STORY.
Next,
I've got another non-fiction project, where I go out on the road and talk to
science deniers, trying to convince them with argumentative techniques based on
the latest research. But I've got another novel in the works too. This one is
about a guy who loses his family in a tragedy, then finds redemption in a
series of "moral" crimes to make the world a better place. Think
BEAUTIFUL MIND crossed with DEATH WISH. There's some philosophy here too. I
joke that the working title of my book should be "utilitarian
vigilante." But instead I've decided to call it THE ART OF GOOD AND EVIL.
Hey, even a philosopher needs to make a few sales!
HALLIE: I so agree with Lee -- fiction is infinitely more difficult to write than nonfiction, though my nonfiction is far less rigorous than his. I love his analysis: nonfiction is like building a wall versus fiction which is trying to find your way home.
So readers and writers, what's more challenging for you to READ or WRITE? Fiction or nonfiction.
HALLIE: I so agree with Lee -- fiction is infinitely more difficult to write than nonfiction, though my nonfiction is far less rigorous than his. I love his analysis: nonfiction is like building a wall versus fiction which is trying to find your way home.
So readers and writers, what's more challenging for you to READ or WRITE? Fiction or nonfiction.
Congratulations, Lee . . . your book sounds quite intriguing and I’m looking forward to reading it.
ReplyDeleteI’m not surprised to hear you say non-fiction is easier to write than fiction, but I think non-fiction can sometimes be more challenging to read. Often it’s so much easier to become absorbed in the fictional story . . . .
I think you're right, but of course it depends on who is writing it. Sometimes non-fiction writers put less emphasis on "holding the reader" because they are in "information" mode. But really good non-fiction should grip you. When I read Malcolm Gladwell, the pages just fly.
DeleteThe new Malcolm Gladwell is on my to-read list!
DeleteI agree ... the most engaging nonfiction for me is one that tells a story. And having said that every fiction writer knows how much real life finds its way into our fiction.
ReplyDeleteYes absolutely. There is a surprising amount of crossover. For most writers, they not only prefer one style, they avoid the other. For some readers too. But I've found that it's made me a better writer for both fiction and non-fiction. As a reader, it's made me MUCH less tolerant of pedantic, lumbering prose in non-fiction. Quite the danger when I've got books with titles like "Deflating Existential Consequences" on my TBR shelf! And that is a VERY engaging book if you are a philosopher!
DeleteI find that fiction is my preferred reading choice. My non-fiction reading is limited to books about musicians or sports figures I like, and even that is few and VERY far between. Beyond that, I get bored rather easily with nonfiction books.
ReplyDeleteGlad to hear I'm not the only one. I read some biographies and memoirs, but not a lot of nonfiction beyond that.
DeleteSusan, nice to see that I'm not the sole member of the club!
DeleteWelcome Lee! The ordinary person trying to salvage an extraordinary situation - what I like to read, too, and what I write. Best of luck with the book.
ReplyDeleteI wrote software manuals for many years, and while procedural writing has clear guidelines that the writer needs follow, it's pretty straightforward and not that challenging once I understood the feature I was describing. Right now I'm faced with a slew of original blog posts - nonfiction - I have to write ... and I'd rather be working on my current novel!
For me, the challenge with non-fiction is clarity. I'm obsessed with the idea of simplifying things as much as I can (but not TOO much) so that the reader can follow it. Engaging someone in ideas is a lot of fun. But nothing gets the pulse pounding like a good thriller!
DeleteWelcome Lee! I took only one philosophy class in college and it was over my head! So hat's off to you for that, and for stretching your writing muscles. I wish you all success on the science denier book--that sounds fascinating and so necessary...
ReplyDeleteThank you so much! I love philosophy but I know what you mean. Some teachers are insecure and like to show how smart they are, which manifests itself as obscurity. My biggest teaching challenge was logic for 5th graders. It was like juggling knives. But they got it! Your philosophy teacher turned you off to a great subject.....that's too bad.
DeleteLee, congratulations on jumping with both feet into your new writing direction. My thoughts exactly on finding a story to tell in nonfiction. I often write small historical research reports--they're pretty much boilerplate, but I look for the nugget of a story to tell as I review the original resources.
ReplyDeleteAnd I am cheering you on in terms of your efforts with science-deniers. As an anthropologist/archaeologist, I've dealt with this issue my entire career--from my students to the public.
Best of luck with your fiction writing--I'm always rooting for the little guy (in terms of protagonists) to succeed--those brawny ex-commandos don't hold my interest.
It's ironic that what really convinces people (and I'm sure science deniers included) is stories. If you try to argue with someone they clam up. But a good personal connection and a narrative they can relate to often works. When I meet science deniers face to face, I've learned to listen more and argue less. Still working on how to convince them with a story, but I'm going back to the Flat Earth convention this year and will try!
DeleteCongratulations Lee! I loved THE SIN EATER— it was absolutely surprising!
ReplyDeleteI’m not sure, as a journalist, which I think is more difficult, to write fiction or nonfiction. They each have their challenges… But at least in nonfiction you have to research anything until You find the answer that’s true. In fiction, anything goes, but – – only if it makes sense.
In non-fiction, there’s all that research time.
In fiction, there’s all that making something out of only your imagination!
But either way… Congratulations!
Thank you Hank! You're an inspiration for so many people and so generous. Your book blurb for THE SIN EATER was wonderful. Yes, the research barrier for non-fiction can be formidable, but I end up doing tons of research for my fiction too. Probably everyone does, to a certain extent, but for me it's a professional hazard!
DeleteLee, congratulations on your book! It sounds really compelling. As does your work in progress. (Side note, I actually LOVE the idea of "Utilitarian Vigilante." But THE ART OF GOOD AND EVIL is strong, too.
ReplyDeleteI thought your analogy about building a wall versus finding your way home was beautiful. I suspect it's a good hint at how strong your writing is -- looking forward to checking it out!
I love your encouragement! Thanks! I never actually road-tested the working title, but assume for most it is a non-starter. Maybe one of those "so bad it's good?" I don't know. Anyway, I'm a long way from having to make THAT decision!
DeleteCongratulations on your book, Lee, and your statement, "It's a little known fact that many philosophers adore crime fiction.", intrigues me. I had the privilege of knowing Fritz Wilhelmsen very well, and through him, meeting Marshall McLuhan of THE MEDIUM IS THE MASSAGE fame. Now that was an evening to remember, which I wish I could. Didn't realize I was breathing rarefied air at the time!
ReplyDeleteFritz introduced me to the books of Josephine Tey, sometime in the 70s. He was an avid reader of crime fiction.
Obviously this was my Conservative Catholic period!
I wish I could name all the philosophers who love crime fiction, but most keep it quiet. They seem embarrassed by it. Wittgenstein had an assistant he would send out to buy his "crime comics." In a quiet voice, many philosophers have confessed to me their "weakness." I'll bet it's the same for a lot of the famous ones, but they don't talk about it.
DeleteCongratulations! Non-fiction is much easier to write: "just the facts, ma'am" plus a hook to draw the reader in. I love Oliver Sacks's essays. Fiction is tough: as the writer, I think I know all the answers, until (like a certain hurricane) I stall out and take a weird shift in the plotline.
ReplyDeleteIn non-fiction I think people default to "let me convince you that I'm right" mode. Maybe what they should do is "let me show you why this is important." That might be more compelling. That said, the best fiction (for me) doesn't just entertain, it informs. I love idea-driven fiction, where something is at stake more than who gets shot next!
DeleteCongratulations, Lee! I'm looking forward to reading your book.
ReplyDeleteThank you so much!
DeleteGreat title, Lee!
ReplyDeletePlot stymies me. Non-fiction, for me, means fact-gathering, organizing those facts, and then presenting them in a cogent, and hopefully entertaining, way. Fiction, on the other hand, requires vast quantities of imagination, characters and situations made up out of whole cloth, carrying on into pretend houses made up of thin air. Honestly, it's more like a magic trick to me!
I agree with you that in non-fiction at least you always know "what's next." If you're building a wall, it's clear where the bricks go. I will say, though, that the only times I've been really blocked as a writer have been with non-fiction. If my thought is confused I just can't move forward until I figure it out. With fiction, I sometimes allow myself to write something terrible just to see where it goes. And then I play with it...and maybe get something good...and then rewrite from the beginning. I like the surprises in fiction. But magic?....yes. Some of the things in fiction seem to come out of nowhere. But that's also what makes it fun.
ReplyDeleteLee McIntyre, welcome to Jungle Reds! I immediately thought of Alexander McCall Smith, an author living in Scotland, who often includes philosophical snippets in his mystery novels like Isabel Dalhousie novels.
ReplyDeleteYour novel sounds intriguing! I wonder if the new nanny was one of these trafficked workers? I will find out when I read your book.
For me, I read more fiction. I am trying to read more non-fiction. I notice that often I cry while reading non fiction novels. Though I am not sure which is easier to write - fiction or non fiction.
Diana
Thank you! I will definitely check out Alexander McCall Smith. My novel doesn't deal with overtly philosophical issues, but there are moral elements to it. One outstanding writer who does philosophical fiction is Rebecca Goldstein. It's more literary than genre, but she knows how to tell a story!
DeleteThank you. Rebecca Goldstein is a new to me author.
DeleteWelcome, Lee! I'm afraid I'm not much of a nonfiction reader ( I like to escape real life) but I do keep an eye out for books I think my husband will like. Mainly history and biography. Nonfiction can certainly read like fiction if it captivates, keeps you interested, and doesn't lecture. I was required to take a couple of philosophy courses in college and I found them frustrating. I wanted answers, not more questions! As far as fiction goes, the so-called average person who finds himself/herself in extraordinary situations is far more interesting than a charismatic but "super" hero who can deal with anything.
ReplyDeletePhilosophers are frustrating because they always have questions! But the advantage is that they are comfortable with uncertainty too. They push the limits, but understand that some things may be unknowable. This reminds me of mysteries. We get excited by the clues and plot twists. In a novel, we do though expect it all to be resolved in the end. For philosophers, not so much!
DeleteHi, Lee! What a terrific post! I'm very interested in your non-fiction books. I think being able to write non-fiction that keeps the reader gripped is a huge talent. Have you read Steven Johnson's The Ghost Map? It's a non-fiction account of the cholera plague in London and the beginning of epidemiology, and it reads like a thriller. The book was a National Book Award winner, I think.
ReplyDeleteAlthough my background is in science, I've never written non-fiction, so I can't make a personal comparison on the difficulty, but I imagine that good non-fiction requires sparks of insight as well.
Love your titles, and can't wait to read The Sin Eater!
Thank you so much! My most accessible non-fiction is POST-TRUTH (MIT Press, 2018), but as a scientist you'd have no trouble with my more recent THE SCIENTIFIC ATTITUDE (MIT Press, 2019) either, which has the added bonus of a section on the history of medicine. I'm a philosopher of science, but I write general audience non-fiction. I'll definitely check out The Ghost Map. Thanks for the tip!
DeleteCongratulations on your debut novel, Lee! I, like many other fiction writers, often consume a LOT of nonfiction when deep in the innards of the next book. It's some of my favorite reading, despite - or perhaps because - I can't imagine doing it myself. There are a lot of folks out there crossing genres, but fording the stream between fact and fiction...not so much.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'll be very interested in seeing how your talking to science deniers goes. People plugging their ears and chanting "I can't hear you!" is one of the great plagues of our time.
It's worse than that. They will claim that I am the science denier....that they are the true scientists. They are conspiracy theorists who think that any evidence against their claims is fake or biased. It is a challenge!
DeleteCongratulations and best wishes.
ReplyDeleteI wonder whether you have read any of Alexander McCall Smith's Isabel Dalhousie series, which I found to be a delightful excursion through applied moral philosophy. https://www.goodreads.com/series/43305-isabel-dalhousie
I have not, but I will check this out! Thanks!
DeleteCongratulations, Lee, on your new, debut novel. The Sin Eater sounds full of delicious suspense. I, too, find it especially interesting when "regular" people are faced with a situation that doesn't fit their normal range of thinking or activity. If you haven't read The Chain by Adrian McKinty, I highly recommend it. It is the ordinary person placed in an extraordinary situation to the max. Your child is kidnapped, and the only way to get her back is to pay the ransom plus kidnap another child.
ReplyDeleteMy son has a philosophy degree, Lee, and he is working on some writing, too. I happen to be quite fond of you philosophy-minded people. You all are infinitely interesting to talk to, as well as reading your thoughts on paper. I will be sharing this post with my son, and after reading The Sin Eater myself, passing it along to my son.
That is so nice to hear and please pass on my best wishes to your son. I'll also be sure to check out "The Chain." Sounds like a moral thriller...my favorite!
DeleteThe stakes are high indeed! What a great premise for a book - I’m in! And I so admire your willingness to argue in favor of science. I find the science deniers exhausting! Congrats on your release, Lee!
ReplyDeleteThank you so much!
DeleteEveryone is providing such great comments - fiction vs non-fiction. I can't remember the last non-fiction book I read, most likely a biography back in high school, which was years ago. I read to escape so that maybe why I don't seek out non-fiction titles. I definitely don't remember taking a philosophy class in college. I don't think it was a requirement for my recreation degree, but then women's history wasn't a requirement when I my General Ed signed off but was required by the time I earned my degree.
ReplyDeleteYour book sounds interesting. Is it difficult to juggle fiction vs non-fiction?
I love writing both. It was hard at first when I was so bad at fiction, but I put in the time and learned and then it got to be more fun. A real challenge. Now it's not a juggle....I couldn't do without either!
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