LUCY BURDETTE: Jenn! I never considered the fact that we might be twins, but it's true! I am revising THE KEY LIME CRIME (so many good ideas--why didn't I think of this!) and trying to hammer out food critic #11, and trying to come up with another plot for a women's fiction. Edits are so rewarding, whereas first drafts are murder. It's not only the words that are hard, it's plot points and character motivations. Everything from scratch. On the edited KL Crime, I've already done my best to map all that out. And now a talented editor is saying "this section is perfect" (occasionally) or "not sure this follows, will the reader find it too much coincidence?" And then offering solutions. It's really very gratifying, unless you get stuck with a lousy editor. But that's another blog...
HALLIE EPHRON: My favorite part of writing is *having written*. First draft is definitely the toughest. Excruciating. But once I've got something down there, no matter how bad it smells, I'm a happy camper. Revision--I'm with Lucy and Jenn--it's the best part. Page proofs? I need to read it aloud to keep myself focused, but I'd rather be doing them any day over first draft. And I'm blessed with a terrific editor. I may not want to hear her say "But but but..." but she's always right.
RHYS BOWEN: My favorite part is toying the that tiny germ of story long before I write anything down. Venice. A small legacy. A secret life. Where would she have lived? What would she have done? Gradually filling in the jigsaw pieces in my mind before I write a word. Then I start to write and every book is exactly the same. The first fifty pages are pure panic, sure it will be a disaster, a failure, a story I won't be able to complete. And then by page 100 I see a glimmer of light ahead. By 200 I'm skipping merrily along to the end, knowing where I'm going (almost). I enjoy revisions and final polish. I usually dislike copy edits because most copy editors do not confine themselves to commas and repeated words but suggest to me how sentences should be written. Stet is often used.
DEBORAH CROMBIE: I love the idea of a book, when you can feel the characters and the setting moving in the shadows, and the book could still be the most brilliant and perfect thing I've ever written. I like the first third or half, too, the set up, discovering the characters I hadn't known would come along. The last half is hard. A slog, and against the clock, not sure I can tie everything together and make it work. Revisions with my editor are fun. She has great suggestions and I always know the book will be the better for it. Copy edits are a pain, but necessary. Page proofs, just shoot me. None of which really answers your question, Jenn. It's all up and down, and often blind panic.
HANK PHILLIPPI RYAN: Blind panic is a good description, love that, and am glad it's not just me. I love having that moment of realizing- OH! What a good idea! And the first three chapters or so bloom like gorgeous weeds. Then, the looming wall. Now what? Working without an outline I go hand over hand, word by stinkin word, knowing that if I just persevere, I will find the story. It's simple addition, right? Just keep writing.
When I am through the horrible endless middle, and then get the first ending, and then the second, and then I think, okay, there's a terrific book in there somewhere! And then, hideous but beloved first draft finished, I have to find it. They key is--for me--not to be afraid. It has worked 11 times, and it will work again.
Then my darling brilliant editor gets it, and reads it, and then and tells me...things. And I think--yes! Why didn't I think of that stuff? And I plow into revisions with the joy of the re-energized. So, short version: I love the revisions. LOVE. Because as a result of my editor, I create things I would never have thought possible. That the final book is SO different from the first draft is my life preserver. Don't worry, I tell myself. Trust the process.
JULIA SPENCER-FLEMING: I am not a fan of revisions. One of the reasons I'm a slow writer is that I tend to craft my sentences, paragraphs and chapters to be pretty much exactly the way I want. Of course, for HID FROM OUR EYES, written over five years, I needed so many revisions, I've lost track of the number of times my editor and I bounced the manuscript back and forth. Every time it was like the Kubler-Ross stages of dying; denial ("There's nothing wrong with this scene!") Anger ("Dammit, why is he picking on me?") Bargaining ("Okay, I'll do one scene, but I won't add a whole new chapter." Depression ("I'll never be done with this book and my life is over." and finally acceptance (Actually, these suggestions really do make the story much stronger.")
My favorite part is what I'm doing now for the Untitled Clare and Russ No. 10, what I call the pen on paper stage. I noodle out ideas, themes, sketch out possible characters, list who wants what and what is the worst thing I can do to this character. I'm doing the starting research, getting just enough to inspire parts of the story, not having to fill in every detail as I will toward the end of the book. It's the Platonic Ideal stage of the book, all bright possibility untrammeled by the actual, you know, writing down words part.
What about you, Readers? Does anything surprise you in this post? Any writers out there want to chime in? Tell us your favorite part of the process!
And here are our weekly RED HOT DEALS!
DEBS: GARDEN OF LAMENTATIONS is still available as an e-book for $1.99!
Click here to read a FREE excerpt from Kincaid/James #18, A BITTER FEAST, coming October 8th!
Signed copies of A BITTER FEAST are available for pre-order from The Poisoned Pen and Barnes and Noble.
JULIA: The second Clare Fergusson/Russ Van Alstyne mystery, A FOUNTAIN FILLED WITH BLOOD, is on sale for only $2.99 the entire month of September! Here's where you can buy:
Prefer a trade paper copy? Enter the Goodreads Giveaway for one of 25 copies!
HANK: Want to hear THE MURDER LIST? Here's a link to a clip of a FREE excerpt from the first Audiobook chapter https://soundcloud.com/macaudio-2/the-murder-list-by-hank-phillippi-ryan-audiobook-excerpt/s-iJCwg
The clip can also be found on the book's landing page here: https://read.macmillan.com/lp/the-murder-list-audiobook/
(which includes all the current outlets for ordering!)
And here are our weekly RED HOT DEALS!
DEBS: GARDEN OF LAMENTATIONS is still available as an e-book for $1.99!
Click here to read a FREE excerpt from Kincaid/James #18, A BITTER FEAST, coming October 8th!
Signed copies of A BITTER FEAST are available for pre-order from The Poisoned Pen and Barnes and Noble.
JULIA: The second Clare Fergusson/Russ Van Alstyne mystery, A FOUNTAIN FILLED WITH BLOOD, is on sale for only $2.99 the entire month of September! Here's where you can buy:
Prefer a trade paper copy? Enter the Goodreads Giveaway for one of 25 copies!
HANK: Want to hear THE MURDER LIST? Here's a link to a clip of a FREE excerpt from the first Audiobook chapter https://soundcloud.com/macaudio-2/the-murder-list-by-hank-phillippi-ryan-audiobook-excerpt/s-iJCwg
The clip can also be found on the book's landing page here: https://read.macmillan.com/lp/the-murder-list-audiobook/
(which includes all the current outlets for ordering!)
I can’t say that I’m particularly surprised, Jenn. I’m absolutely certain that writing a book is HARD and I can readily understand the likes and dislikes each person expressed. All I can say is . . . I really look forward to reading your books, ladies . . . I’m so glad you keep on writing, despite the difficulties.
ReplyDeleteThank you! It makes a difference that you out there waiting, that's for sure!
DeleteThank you, Joan! Your support is so appreciated!
DeleteThank you for sharing your writing experiences. I can imagine how HARD it is to write a story;
ReplyDeleteAnd I wanted to ask you all - what are your favorite writing tools? I was watching five favorite writing tools by Ellie Alexander on you tube. Among her favorite tools are notebooks and editing pens in different colors.
Diana
I have a notebook , just a school-type spiral notes book--where I write all the things that come to me as I am working on my manuscript. Like: who called Jack? And: oh! Gabe gets the info from the parents!
DeleteI do that so I can just go on instead of stopping. I treasure those notebooks, one for every novel.
#1 is of course my computer. (Before that my typewriter...) But I'm also a big fan of 3x5 cards. I cut a pile of them in half and jot quick ideas for whatever book I'm developing--character names, situations, settings, themes, really anything that I'm noodling with. Then lay them out to and rearrange in rows and columns, and it helps me organize my disparate thoughts about the work in progress.
DeleteMy computer first. Other than that it's a miracle that I make anything out of the scraps of paper where I jot important ideas--or ideas that seemed important at the time...
DeleteDefinitely, notebooks! I always have one at hand. Also my phone as I use it to take reference pictures, send myself notes of ideas, occasionally research questions.
DeleteA notebook, always a notebook, for jotting down idea that come in a flash, and especially for just before sleep, when I will sometimes get whole scenes of dialogue. I learned from long experience that I will lose these by morning if I don't capture them.
DeleteAnd, like Jenn, my phone, when I am researching a book in the UK I take loads of reference photos. And I am always looking things up!
I don't use different colored editing pencils, but I do use different fountain pen inks for different things in my notebooks and journals.
Everyone, thank you! I remember studying for my exams and using index cards. Notebooks are great for writing down ideas!
DeleteDiana
I've heard from other authors who hate revisions, but love the first drafts because of all the possibilities. I certainly see your reasoning, however, about editing being better than first drafts.
ReplyDeleteBecause you HAVE something to fix!
DeleteExactly! the blank page is the worst
DeleteFirst drafts never used to be hard but the last book was a misery, probably because I went without a proper outline (a first). I spent the whole book wanting to run away. Ugh.
DeleteI find myself nodding and agreeing with ALL of you. I love/hate first drafts depending on how they're going. Same with revisions. Line edits? I do a lot of head-desking. (What do you MEAN, my punctuation is wrong???) And page proofs? Ugh.
ReplyDeletePunctuation: sigh. I still don't really get where commas go/don't go and am mystified at where editors put in paragraph breaks. But I try not to sweat the small stuff.
DeleteAnd I fear I do a lot of rogue punctuation. It looks like how I think it sounds. They hate that. :-) PLus, I had one CE who kept putting in semicolons. Out out out.
DeleteYes! No to semicolons.
DeleteCopy edits = bald spots, I’m just sayin’.
DeleteAck, the dreaded semi-colon!! Copy editors should know better!
DeleteYou have no idea how happy I am to hear you all say this! Hallie, Hank, YES. I put commas where they SOUND like they should go. And it's never right! Ack! Semi-colons? Have they not gotten the memo about semi-colons being out of vogue??? Thank you. I feel vindicated.
DeleteThere's a complete idea in the first part of the sentence; the second part is linked, but stands alone. You can take my semi-colons when you pry them from my madly typing fingers!
DeleteI use tons of semi-colons when I'm drafting. I tend to get rid of them in the revision phase.
DeleteJulia, you are welcome to all the semi-colons you want, including the ones my editor tries to force on me! They are all yours, my friend!
DeleteI love, love, love this post today!!! Because the process never ends. Once you are successful in publishing a book (and to rave reviews, you wonderful Reds!), well, here it goes again! Next book, rinse and repeat. But I am especially interested in the role your editors play in helping you craft your final version of each book.
ReplyDeleteThere was a series that I loved--historical setting, strong characters, great plots. I eagerly awaited each new book. Then it seemed to take a while for a new book to appear and it was: meh.... Almost like someone had derived a formula for how these books should proceed and had a checklist for what each character should do, etc. Next book, more of the same. Third book (I desperately missed the characters), I finally noticed that the author had changed publishers, and I began to wonder--do the differences lie less in the author slacking off and more with the fact that there's a different editor? Final book, great improvement, much more like the original books in the series--and a different editor. It surprised me--but suggested how important it is to have an editor who really 'gets' your writing.
Such a good point! A good editor/author relationship is like a good marriage. Rare and special.
DeleteOH, my goodness--a good editor is make or break. Truly.
DeleteAbsolutely, an editor who gets the story is key...next week is "what we're writing" and that's exactly what I'll be talking about.
DeleteFlora, I've been so lucky to have great editors, three of them. No one has ever said that my style has changed from one to the next, although I think with my current editor (A Bitter Feast is our TENTH book together!) my writing tends to be leaner. Which is a good thing!
DeleteI’ve had the same editor for most of my books. Very light handed in her edits, but if I stray from my own voice (I’m moody, it happens), she pulls me back. It’s the most important relationship in publishing. I’ve had author friends almost completely broken by bad editors. Nightmare.
DeleteI've been so blessed with my editors. Knowing you have someone who believes in you is the best feeling. This also means I trust them and take their suggestions very seriously.
DeleteWhen reading a novel, I always look for the name of the editor in the Acknowledgments.
DeleteDiana
Also, the first rule of copy editing should be: Do No Harm. The author has a voice, a style. A way of phrasing that is theirs. Fix what needs to be fixed from a technical standpoint, but don't ever make suggestions for rewriting sentences--unless the meaning as written is so confusing you can't make sense of it. And in that case, you comment politely.
ReplyDeleteI tend to make up words - I’m a copyeditor’s nightmare. LOL. But, yes, do no harm is ideal!
DeleteLove it when I see made up words. It's so fun to play with language.
DeleteDiana
I am simply amazed how you can juggle it all in your head! Working on 3 at once, Jenn? Sounds like madness to me. But I can see why revising could be the very best part. keep up the good work, ladies, so we can all keep reading. I'm appreciating you and your hard work more and more.
ReplyDeleteAnd, of corse, promoting a book that's a year old. Wny did you do x y and z, a reader will ask? And you think--oh, I did THAT? Huh. NO idea.
DeleteI ask them a question back - why do you think? ;^)
DeleteLove that, Edith! I'm going to try it out on book tour next month!
DeleteUgh, promotion is my least favorite part. So time consuming and I never feel as if it matters to the success of the book. The only fun part is meeting other readers!
DeleteJenn, Charlaine Harris once told me the best form of promotion was to write another book. if that's true, you're doing better promotion than anybody!
DeleteEdth, that is a brilliant solution:
Delete"I ask them a question back - why do you think? ;^) " Filing for the future.
Brilliant, Edith! I wish I'd thought of this two weeks ago when I was talking to the book club in Gettysburg!
DeleteI love this from Julia: "It's the Platonic Ideal stage of the book, all bright possibility untrammeled by the actual, you know, writing down words part." And Deb's similar: "I love the idea of a book, when you can feel the characters and the setting moving in the shadows, and the book could still be the most brilliant and perfect thing I've ever written." Yes, that's me. Very excited. And then I find that all those wonderful ideas add up to maybe a chapter, and I actually have a whole book to write. That is the work part. When I started writing, I hated the idea of revision. I'd written something (a miracle) and it was all I had.Gradually I realized that revision is what makes the book. Editing? A few times, the to editor at my publisher has said, "This is not working.It needs to be XXX" First I think, "No, no, no!"And then I remember she is always right - she is! - and the book will be much better If I listen. So I do. And am grateful.
ReplyDeleteI've had that exact experience. which is why I advise authors who are on the receiving-end of criticism to SHUT (pause) UP. Listen. Take notes. And THINK about t for a few days before you reject it out of hand. There's always something there, but if an editor offers a solution it may not be the right one for your book.
DeleteReally. ALWAYS. And I first realized this in TV reporting working with a producer. If someone else has a good idea that makes your story better--yay!
DeleteI hate that Triss, when all the good ideas end up being one chapter, or only a couple pages!
DeleteI’m in this right now on my revisions. I’m “killing my darlings” as they say - painful but the book will be better for it. I hope!
DeleteInteresting takes here. I've gone through the process, different ways, myself: being edited by my husband, being edited by friends, being edited by professionals. My husband, who is a professional writer as well as a photographer and cinematographer, was the WORST. He's the one you describe, Rhys, moving sentences around, chopping them into bits, and generally changing MY style of writing into his. Conversely, when I edit HIS work, I confine myself to spelling and punctuation, and of course missing and/or repeated words. He always seems disappointed, which amuses me.
ReplyDeleteI hasten to add, he has many other sterling qualities. Just not editing others' work.
DeleteKaren, that’s hilarious! I love that he was hoping for heavier handed editing. It explains why he was so free with his edits of your work.
DeleteKaren, those two words husband and editing should not belong in the same sentence! John is my first reader which I appreciate but we do have fights!
DeleteRoss only ever read my books at the page proof stage, a detail-oriented task he performed beautifully. He would break the galley pages up into sections, then read them out of order and backwards to catch the typos. I'm not sure he ever had a clear idea of what any particular story was, but he got the gist. :-)
DeleteRhys, I remember a conversation about this when you and John and I were together in New Orleans!
DeleteFirst off, Hank, THE MURDER LIST was amazing. I had every intention of writing yesterday. Not so much.
ReplyDeleteFirst drafts are fun because...possibilities. At least in the first 50-100 pages. Then it's "what was I thinking, I can't write a book, the last one was a fluke and I'll never get it done again." Pages 150-200 are, "Okay, yeah, this might work." Pages 200-300 are, "Okay, I'm brilliant, this is brilliant, how could I have doubted myself?"
Then there are revisions. "What do you mean you don't agree with X? But it's wonderful! No? Okay, maybe not. Yeah, you're right. Why didn't I think of that the first time?" It's a tough thing hearing your wonderful masterpiece needs some polish, but hey, it's there to be polished.
Proofs? Tedious, boring, and necessary - but I know that no matter how hard I and the editors try, I'll find a typo the first time I read the finished product, so that thought is always a little disheartening. But we try.
Hurray! Thank you! And you know, that book was SO different in first draft. Someday we can talk about how. But YAY! SO pleased to hear this..thank you!
DeleteLiz - the middle of every book is the Dead Marshes to me. I honestly have no idea how I survive it - every stinking book.
DeleteLiz, I was just describing my process to a friend this weekend, and I said exactly the same thing, including "Last hundred pages of the book: Oh, my God, I'm so brilliant!"
DeleteI should add that "I'm so brilliant," after I turn the manuscript in to my agent and editor, becomes crushing insecurity that they won't like it and I'll have to throw it away and write a whole other book. No it hasn't happened yet, but you never know, do you?
DeleteJenn, exactly. "I will never make this work. I have no idea what I'm doing and this story is going nowhere."
DeleteJulia, I think that happens to all of us.
On the subject of changes, didn't someone once say, "If a person tells you something is wrong with your story, they are almost always right. If they tell you how to fix it, they are almost always wrong" - or something like that?
OMG - what a perfect post for my Monday morning! I emailed my completed page proofs at 10 last night. Praise the Lord! Like Hallie said, I have to read aloud to keep from - you know - "reading." Woke up to only TWO tasks for the day - revising a ms due at the end of the month and making time to fiddle with shiny-bright rough draft that has me tapping my toes with enthusiasm. Thanks!
ReplyDeleteSO exciting, Greta! Isn't it so much fun when it's almost there..and you can "see" the end?
DeleteYour day sounds divine! Enjoy!
DeleteSlogging through edits and as my reward, noodling a short story set in NOLA. It's a comin': love the characters, have the setting, need to figure out what happens and why.
ReplyDeleteOoooh, you have the fun parts happening!!!
DeleteYes the "figure out what happens" is always the part where my excitement dims.I might even know more or less where it ends. But getting there? Yikes.
DeleteI can't believe I forgot to stop by here today! I'm currently writing the antepenultimate scene in my 23rd mystery and it's great fun. I actually do love writing first draft (well, not the middle, of course...). I love it when my characters surprise me. I love crafting language. Revisions are good, too. Page proofs? No fun but ya gotta do it and ya gotta pay attention despite how soporific they are.
ReplyDeleteEdith, my late writing teacher (our Gigi Norwood's husband, Warren) said you should read page proofs backwards. But I just can't do it.
DeleteCharacters surprising a writer truly is the BEST! Congrats on mystery 23!!!
DeleteI jst want to say how impressed I am with "antepenultimate." That is some premium wordsmithing, right there!
DeleteOne of my favorite words from my academic linguistics days. Although preprandial ain't bad, either. He had a preprandial sherry, an intraprandial smoke, and a postprandial nap!
DeleteI think dreaming up characters, setting, action would all be great fun and totally mental, in all aspects of the word. But putting it on paper? Not in this life! Keep up the joy and angst, ladies, so we readers can savor the joys of reading your stories.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Julia! If you don't use semicolons, you either have a run-on sentence (fingernails on a chalkboard) or two sentences that need less separation than a period. Semicolons get a bad rap! I love them!
ReplyDeleteThis post is so interesting. Like Triss, I love Julia's and Debs' descriptions of the thinking about the book, the story, in its idea stages of possibility, and Rhys' "germ of a story." And, Hank, that "horrible, endless middle" seems so daunting. I have to agree with those who aren't fond of first drafts, as I think that would be what Lucy called it, "murder." Of course, as Hallie says, "having written" must be a great place to be. Jenn, you make my head spin, with all the different stages you are dealing with working on three books at once. Whew!
ReplyDeleteIn writing reviews, I always dread the beginning, because I so want to do a book justice in describing and promoting it (I only do positive reviews, don't review books I don't like, which is rare for me not to like a book these days). It's sometimes hardest to review the books I love the most, again to start that review and set the tone for how wonderful the book really is. I'm writing the review for Debs' A Bitter Feast right now, and I had to step away from it. I loved this book so much that I'm fearful I won't get it right. I'll go back to it today and see if I can find those special words it deserves. So, definitely the first draft is hardest and my least favorite of writing a review. Revision and editing are always enjoyable to me, although I completely understand and identify with Julia's method of crafting her work pretty much the way she wants it from the start. A reason I often write slowly, too. If I had to write an entire book, it would take longer than five years.
Kathy, thank you!!!! And I know what you mean about "getting it just right" in the reviews. I struggle terribly with blurbs for books I really love, always afraid I won't find the right words to do the book justice. I'm reading an ARC now that I love and I'm already stressed over how to describe the book so that people will know how good it is!
DeleteDeborah. When will you be publishing your tour schedule for “A Bitter Feast” or have I missed it? Looking forward to plunging into the book, I’ve so enjoyed the photos of the Cotswolds that you’ve been posting this month.
ReplyDeleteSue Ellen, yes, just finalized today. So hope to get up on my web page tomorrow and will post the link when I do!
DeleteI know that when I'm prepping to write a review, whether it is for a book, concert or a CD, I'm just glad when I'm done with it and can save the final version and email it off.
ReplyDeleteIt's not that I don't like the creative process that goes into writing it up but I'm never sure if the actual work is going to be good enough to satisfy me in relation to how I craft it in my head BEFORE I even start writing.
I've thrown out a number of versions of reviews because I hated the writing I did. And if I can't stand reading it, I can only imagine what others would think.
The first time I attempted a book review, it took me 2 1/2 weeks to write a version that didn't make me want to vomit over the writing.
So when I'm DONE, that's where my happy place is.
I write for the Communications, Public Relations & Marketing department for a community college. That role includes not only writing but also proofreading and editing. So, I see all sides of the process. The part of writing that I love is when I am in the flow of creativity, when it feels like the words are flowing through my fingers onto the page/screen. Another part I love is when my work touches others, whether it is my boss, who is a tough editor, or a reader I don't expect. What a joy it is when your hard work connects with someone else's heart, just like the works of all the writers above. Thank you for your hard work. We are blessed by it!
ReplyDeleteThis is so much fun to read. I love to hear what all of you think about the writing process. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteMy writing is more social and office communication so I get to edit myself, which isn't always a good thing. I love spell check except when it wants to correct the words I sorta kinda want that word wrong or when want bad grammer. As a crocheter there are times I want to throw it across the room. Scarves are no problem but blankets, no matter the size, it bogged down about a half way through the project. I feel like I'm never going to see the end and then, voila I'm ready to start the border, which is a whole other issue.
ReplyDeleteHaving written.
ReplyDeleteI find this process discussion fascinating. I love the noodling phase, like Hallie find the drafting to be excruciating, like many of you really prefer the revision. The draft is like a blob of clay, the revision like finally sculpting. Copy-editing and proofing are tedious but dull. I like Hank's "trust the process." I need to remember that!
ReplyDeleteI'm with Hallie. That blank page is intimidating. I've never done a "first draft." For me each completed chapter/scene is a first draft of that chapter or scene. Then I reread it and make changes. Then I read it out loud and make more changes. As I continue through the novel, I will sudddenly realize that I must go back and add a character trait, or have something happen that will tie in with what happens later. If I had to sit down and write an entire 300 page first draft, I'd probably throw myself off my balcony.
ReplyDelete