HALLIE EPHRON: Recently got a message from Michael Neff, founder and chief architect of the excellent Algonkian Writer Conferences asking if I’d be interested in putting together an intensive, advanced workshop that would be a sort of “finishing school” for suspense and mystery novels.
I was hooked. This would so different from the kind of one to three hour workshops I often give. I’d get a chance to look at entire manuscripts rather than a single aspect, and work with more advanced writers on how to polish their own completed (or nearly completed) work.
Immediately I’ve set about trying to envision what exactly are the finishing touches that a manuscript needs so that an editor will want to pluck it from the slush pile and offer a wad of cash for the honor of publishing it. So that a reader who samples Page One is so hooked that they continue reading right through to the surprising and satisfying finish line.
So that readers don't post devastating critiques like this one:
Most of the experienced writers I know love being in that final writing phase: polishing story lines and picking nits.
Last week, behind the scenes, one of the Reds (AKA RED A): “I got the first batch of pages from my editor. The good news is that she says she loves the book, the family stuff is great, the crime works well. The bad news is that she says it needs to be 100 to 150 pages shorter!!”
RED B chimed in: “My latest I’ve just turned in is 430 pages but I can’t think of anything I could take out. Tell her every word is precious!”
RED C: “Your words may be precious but mine are definitely not! I have a very bad tendency to over-write with too much exposition, and my editor is a genius at seeing how to tighten things up.”
RED D: “I sent mine in KNOWING 15,000 at least had to go, and eager to cut! It's now SO MUCH BETTER in every way. It's like--a treasure hunt. I'm on the prowl--what work does this line do, what work does this paragraph do, is it pulling its weight? What can I take away? I love it, I completely do. Kill my darlings? If they're clogging the pacing or being tangential, they are not my darlings, right? BAM. Gone.”
RED E commiserated: “Remember "Bird by bird?" You need to do "Slash by slash." :-)
RED F: “Wish I could help. I'm an underwriter and always turn stuff in short and then I have to be a fluffer and gas it up in the revisions.
RED G: "I will gladly take anyone's extra words, just send them on. I struggle to get to 70,000 words in a first draft!"
HALLIE: But *too long* or *not long enough* is what I’d term first-world problems. The Reds are an experienced bunch who know what we’re doing and, by the way, know our own strengths and weaknesses. For less experienced writer, the problems with an unpublished manuscript invariably run far deeper than word count. It’s more than a matter of tightening or enriching the storytelling or slashing and burning the establishing narrative. It’s the tricky business of capturing a reader’s attention from Page One, a compelling voice, a character arc, and effective pacing.
In other words, it’s complicated. And, having read so many not-quite-ready-for prime-time manuscripts, each (like unhappy families) is sub-par in its own way. Still there are patterns which I hope to get at in my workshop design.
So I thought I’d pose the question here: Beyond "it's just not my cup of tea," what makes you dissatisfied (or even stop reading) a mystery or suspense novel? A weak opening? An unlikeable character? Annoying voice? Too many coincidences? Too much background information? Unbelievable situations? Plots with massive holes in them? Typos and grammatical errors? Or, or, or...
Go ahead! I'm taking notes... What are your pet peeves? I’ll pass them along to writers who, armed with knowledge, can revise to avoid them.
HALLIE: But *too long* or *not long enough* is what I’d term first-world problems. The Reds are an experienced bunch who know what we’re doing and, by the way, know our own strengths and weaknesses. For less experienced writer, the problems with an unpublished manuscript invariably run far deeper than word count. It’s more than a matter of tightening or enriching the storytelling or slashing and burning the establishing narrative. It’s the tricky business of capturing a reader’s attention from Page One, a compelling voice, a character arc, and effective pacing.
In other words, it’s complicated. And, having read so many not-quite-ready-for prime-time manuscripts, each (like unhappy families) is sub-par in its own way. Still there are patterns which I hope to get at in my workshop design.
So I thought I’d pose the question here: Beyond "it's just not my cup of tea," what makes you dissatisfied (or even stop reading) a mystery or suspense novel? A weak opening? An unlikeable character? Annoying voice? Too many coincidences? Too much background information? Unbelievable situations? Plots with massive holes in them? Typos and grammatical errors? Or, or, or...
Go ahead! I'm taking notes... What are your pet peeves? I’ll pass them along to writers who, armed with knowledge, can revise to avoid them.
I cannot remember the last time I might have tossed a book aside unfinished, but I have read a book or two that I’d found deeply disappointing. For me, the “not getting it right” is huge. If the story is about a police investigation, please know how police investigations work. And while that brand-new, inexperienced officer may have good instincts, may be the one to notice an important clue, it doesn’t mean that everyone else behaves as if they’ve never even been at a crime scene before. I guess I want it to be believable, pulling me into the story rather than pushing me away with something that’s unrealistic and unbelievable . . . .
ReplyDeleteI completely get that, Joan - I know that readers who know about guns, just for example, go ballistic (haha) when a writer misuses the simpest of terms like pistol or revolver. So simple but it was something I had to term.Or has police officers (or attorneys or medical examiners...) do things that, in the real world, they'd never do.
DeleteDefinitely an unlikely character, especially if it happens in the first chapter. Too much descriptive narrative, not enough dialogue. Definitely typos and grammatical errors, again, in the first chapter. The first paragraph will make or break a story for me.
ReplyDelete"The first paragraph will make or break a story for me." - This is something I hear A LOT from literary agents. First paragraph. First page. First chapter... Make or break...
DeleteThe part about too much descriptive narrative is why I found it’s important to get advice fr those who know your genre. My first “adviser” wanted me to insert pages of five sense descriptions into my cozy mystery because she was used to and preferred literary fiction.
DeleteI agree with Joan. I rarely give up on books but being able to trust the writer's authority is big for me, in all genres. I want to relax and believe — if I can't do that, reading becomes work and I save work for non-fiction. Two other turn-offs: too much disturbing violence (I know — murder mysteries, right?) and then a strange one: I have zero patience if an author confuses me with similar-looking names that start with the same letters. I remember reading an early Elizabeth George and wanting to hurl it against the wall because two of the females involved in the murder had names that I constantly exchanged in my mind. I had to stop repeatedly to orient myself: "Which one is she?" This became work, and though I didn't give up on the story, I was aggravated and too aware of the gears grinding.
ReplyDeleteLaughing on the names! I realized once I was using names that were too similar when *I* (the writer!) kept mixing them up! I keep a list of names and try not to reuse the same initial letters, no rhyming names, vary the number of syllables, and make sure the name exPRESS something about that character (or its opposite).
DeleteAnd I try not to use a name that's short and a syllable found in lots of other words. RON is out because if I do a global search-and-replace when I get tired of it, I'll get some very interesting un-wordly typoes. ("IRoning" becomes "IStevening")
DeleteI second the naming convention quirk: don't give me different characters with the same initials or similar names. Too confusing!
DeleteHear, hear, on the similar names. I did finish a recent book where all the names began with "A", but it was so much WORK! +
DeleteThat workshop sounds right down your alley, Hallie. I'd like to take it.
ReplyDeleteI recently stopped reading a series I had enjoyed because the protagonist had an annoying verbal habit. I don't know if she had it in the first two books, and I didn't notice, or if it was new in this book. I read a lot of cozy mysteries, and sometimes I stop because they're too...cozy. Or maybe it's because they roll out the whole village in the first chapter, or there isn't enough suspense early on.
I'll be reading carefully here today - I'm writing the first book in a new series. Of course I want it to be better than all the rest I've written, and it's nerve wracking hoping I can make it be!
Oy, verbal tics! They can sneak in when a writer is reaching for a distinctive "voice." So easy to fix but you have to see it as an issue.
DeleteThe number 1 complaint I have is a sluggish plot line. Number 2 is a shallow protagonist, and followed inevitably by lack of development in relationships and other shallow characters (everywhere) in the book. The last thing - and perhaps even the most frequent thing - that will make me close a book forever is if it triggers my own traumas. I read for enjoyment, and if I am reliving the worst moment of my life, that is not enjoyable. I know the author has no way of knowing about that, so you can't be blamed. I know some may say I may be missing out on "healing," but when I real novels, I am looking for escape, not healing. I will go to a therapist for healing, thank you. Yeah, so here's a reader that is looking for escape, but doesn't want anything too shallow. I know, I know. But many of you Reds fill the bill! You're awesome!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, I also avoid subjects that disturb me emotionally, Danielle
DeleteDanielle, I agree with all your points above but really like the way you explained the "trigger" concept. I would not have thought about it that way but recently, I set aside a very well thought of book because the subject made me squirm. I keep a reading journal and was reviewing it last week when I saw the note I had written explaining why I returned the book unread.
DeleteThat "trigger" issue shades over into: not every book is for everyone. And I've found that at different times in my life I have the capacity (or lack thereof) to read books with certain themes. Right now I'm super-sensitive and need stories that feel "safe." (And cozies don't always feel that kind of safe because sometimes the author's light tone minimizes the catastrophic nature of death which drives me to the exit.)
DeleteHallie, I agree wholeheartedly. After my son was revealed to have a life-changing mental illness, I found I cannot read or watch anything that uses such overwhelming griefs for light comedy. But I've been sensitive to other things at other times in my life. Those passing issues may still cause a quiver but I don't stop reading or watching. Different stories for different circumstances.
DeleteWhen the writing becomes trite. Or the repetitive use of an unique descriptive word. I used to never not finish a book I started (unless it was a textbook 🙄) however more recently I’m less forgiving of poor writing and sloppy editing. Make me want to know more within the first chapter or sooner. Then if the story meanders a bit at some point at least make it an enjoyable side trip adding to the story line.
ReplyDeleteLaughing! The repeated word that drives me nuts is: petite. Also: a character who's response to situation is to giggle or chuckle. I have no idea why it rankles and yet it does.
DeleteA certain writer always seems to have their main character grinning! Another writer's character is constantly jogging, as in 'she jogged across the room.' If only they would read their work out loud so they could hear those repetitions.
DeleteI used to edit for a friend who wrote men's thrillers. The first book he wrote after I no longer edited his work contained a scene where a character was seeing a small door in a small wall where a small handle was turned to reveal a small garden with small whatevers. You get the idea. I don't think I ever did finish that one, I was so horrified that passage got through.
DeleteSmall wonder
DeleteRemember the old pull quote we used to see on book covers … “spellbinding?” I believe we’re weaving spells with the reader.
ReplyDeleteI want to feel transported, whether it’s to Key West or a desert planet where imposing dragons glide through the sand. I want to bond with a character who’s my avatar in that world. I want to live with and feel with them for how many hundred pages we’re together.
All those details previous commenters mentioned pull some readers out of the “from the author’s mind to the reader’s mind” spell.
Then again, what’s one reader’s “nope” is something another overlooks. I know we’ve all seen best-sellers that other readers gush over but left us thinking “meh” or “how did that author get away with that?”
I think some of it is in how the story is spooled out. We need to care about the main character and care about what they care about. We need to worry about them with questions in our minds. What happens next? What’s our Main Character gonna do? How’s that gonna land? Not only with them but the other people they care about?
Occasionally, I’ve described the difference between writing down what happened in what order and writing fiction as the difference between taking off your clothes to go to bed and doing a striptease. One is a basic function and the other is for effect.
Anyway, I’ve taken enough workshops and Crime Bake master classes with you that I bet you can figure it out, Sensei. Congratulations on your invitation!
Rhonda, you nailed it: "We need to care about the main character and care about what they care about. "
DeleteI don't mind unlikable characters, but I hate dumb ones. If a character continually overlooks an obvious clue (usually because the author isn't ready to reveal it yet) or if a character continues to have Too Stupid to Live moments, them I'm outta there. I start re-writing in my mind. These flaws are EASY to fix. Just give the character some self awareness. "I shouldn't go down in that dark basement, but I have to because..." Or let her consider a clue and reject it for some plausible reason instead of just pretending it doesn't exist.
ReplyDeleteI remember when I was writing my first crime novel, an editor I hired to save me from myself talked about "exception handling" - a term in sales where the seller deals with the potential buyer's resistance to buying. That when the character did something dumb or out of character, it was a good idea to have them recognize what 's going on and in some way justify it to the reader.
Delete"Exception handling." I love it. Didn't know there was a term for it.
DeleteI love to feel as if I " am there," and to feel when the characters are human, not always sure. I can enjoy short, medium, or long if it is interesting, entertaining, and intelligently written.
ReplyDeleteTypo and grammatical errors are annoying.
ReplyDeleteI have to care for or be curious about characters .
I hate overlong descriptions of places, sex scenes or introspections, I prefer action and dialogues.
I can’t read scenes of graphic violence and abuse or torture of people, children and animals.
Danielle
I agree with you on all counts, Danielle.
DeleteToo many similar characters (five men all the same age with interchangeable names like Tex). The author playing the "I know a big secret and I'm not telling for another 2-3 books" game. Not identifying the setting (could a 2 bedroom apt in NYC walking distance to posh hotels realistically rent for $1800/mo?). An opening chapter lifted from a guidebook instead of sensory details--just enough--to insert the reader into the setting. Do your research! How many rooms can a motel maid clean in one day? Coneflowers and daffodils do not bloom at the same time, at least in my world. Seamless transitions from the "in the past" plot to the "present day" plot.
ReplyDeleteSounds like a great workshop!
Margaret, your comment about flowers made me laugh. I kept being bounced out of one novel by the author's repeated references to the rustling leaves of larches (a coniferous tree)!
DeleteLove these points, Margaret! Like you, I especially get lost when the characters feel as if they're "floating" - WHERE ARE THEY AND WHO ELSE IS THERE?? So easily handled and yet... often not.
DeleteWhat makes me put a book down? First would be poor editing or no editing at all. I've got no time to be rewriting every sentence people. Next is an overly large amount of fluff/purple prose. After a character is introduced, I don't need a full wardrobe description each time he or she appears on the scene. And I'm particularly disinterested in the state of anyone's abs. Same with the scene.l Once described, I can remember what it looks like and where it is. Too much backstory unnecessarily introduced into dialogue. You know what I mean.
ReplyDeleteI still haven't got over my salad days, when I bought a book first by length. At five bucks a pop for a market paperback, I needed something that would last. And it better have a first page that grabbed me or it went back on the shelf. I still want a good long book. Short is anything with less than 400 pages.
Overused tropes: a current one is the ubiquitous girl/sister/daughter that disappeared 15 years ago and just now bones are surfacing. It's been done. Don't do it again.
Happy Juneteenth!
Oh, Ann, this is priceless: "And I'm particularly disinterested in the state of anyone's abs"
DeletePS Great list.
Sounds like a great workshop, Hallie.
ReplyDeleteToo much description that doesn't serve a purpose. Thin characters. Mistakes that are easily avoided by research. Too many TSTL moments, especially from a protagonist. As Edith mentioned, cozies that are too "cozy." Cheats from the author (information pops up on page 295 of a 300 page book that solves the crime or hiding information from the reader are particularly annoying). And if you're going to give me an "unlikable" character, please give me a compelling reason to follow him/her for the next 300 pages.
You've said a lot in a very few words here, Liz - Thank you!
DeleteRight Liz. Or someone showing up at the end to explain it all. I just read a book like that 10 pages of explanation near the end. Ut-oh. Can't remember the book.
DeleteAgreed. I need to have been able to solve the mystery along the way by virtue of how the story unfolds and the characters behave -- even though I often don't, of course. But DO NOT tell all in the final few pages by introducing previously unknown info that wraps it all up. Nope. Doesn't work for me.
DeleteHallie, I save my over-writing for my first drafts! LOL
DeleteJudy and Amanda, YES! And what really annoys me is I've just spent 290 pages trying to figure it out. Ugh.
My biggest pet peeve is characters who are a "type" rather than realistic individuals. Unlikable characters are OK to a point, but I did recently notice I wasn't enjoying a certain book because there were NO admirable or stable characters in it. Graphic violence or acts of cruelty are a hard no for me, too. (Sometimes the event has to be reported, but to me that is the time for telling rather than showing -- it can be put clinically in the police report, for example.) Also, I absolutely do not want to go inside the head of a serial killer or psychopath. And like Edith, though I do enjoy many cozies, some turn me off in the opening pages by being cloyingly sweet.
ReplyDeleteHallie, congratulations.
ReplyDeleteI do love cozies, but not too cozy. Sometimes, even a good cozy author has a so-so plot.
Authors, I hate it when your much loved character decides to enter a very dangerous situation for no more compelling reason than curiosity. It's okay to send Jack Reacher in there (he's got skills), or Harry Bosch, but not Suzie Q.
Modern authors need to figure out how to get rid of the cell phone. Yeah. This is the only spot in town with no service ( eye roll here.)
If you let the villain triumph, I probably won't read any of your other books. Just saying.
If there is a love interest, make it interesting.
I really love series, thrillers, spy stories, adventures, police, connected romances, etc. It is reassuring to me that good prevails, that love triumphs and that we'll be back for more.
"Not Suzie Q" - I'm envisioning the title of a debut novel in a series with a least likely detective... It could work.
DeleteWe just read a book in Book Club from a very popular writer. I have enjoyed several of her books, also knowing she does a lot of research which is excellent, tells the research well to make it easy to understand and part of the story, and that there is always a twist. After a few books, you (I) start to try and outthink her as to what the twist may be – that is a bit annoying on my part as it tends to take away from the flow of the story. However, the last two of her books that I read – one from 2014 and one from Covid times had me going as I finished it – that was just stupid – referring to the ending. The author gave me a book that I enjoyed through the most of it, and then – What????! It left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Honestly, I am now timid to try her next book. So, the ending questions from Book Club – 1) How would you rate this book – 6/10 – six for the info part of the story and how I related and emphasized with it, and she lost all the points on the ending, and 2) would you recommend this book – I would recommend this author, but not this book.
ReplyDeleteSo disappointing when that happens...
DeleteThe opening paragraph and page must pull me in, by which I mean the writing, the scene, the character(s) need to ignite my imagination: I need to *feel* it, feel like I can *be* there in the story. What achieves this? Confident writing. Genuine characters (they could be real if they weren't in a book). A plot that makes sense. Dialogue that adds to the story rather than filling the page and plugging the gaps.
ReplyDeleteA quirk of mine is that I'm not wild about books written in the present tense.
Congrats, Hallie, on this new workshop. Sounds like it will be fun to prepare, and so worthwhile for the lucky participants to then work with you!
I've heard other folks say present tense puts them off, too. I find it puts me off for the first few pages and then I stop noticing if everything else is cooking.
DeleteOne of the reasons that I like Book Club is that we all read the same book, and rather than just put it down, we finish it probably out of guilt and peer pressure. What always amazes me is how 10 people can all read the same book, at the same time, and ‘get’ different things from it. It is so interesting when someone picks up on something that either most of us missed, or never thought of in that way.
ReplyDeleteI think that if you can keep an open mind the discussion of a controversial book provides much more than the author intended. In the last book that I mentioned that I thought was stupid, most people rated a 9. (That may be partly because it at last had a story and the last few had been so unbelievable bad...). What they accepted in the ending was what I could not. However, what I enjoyed (the description of animal grief), no one else noticed. It was something that I picked up on, was interested in, and had first-hand experience with – I was a farmer earlier in my life. To me, it should have been the crux of the story – really otherwise why bring it into the plot.
Which brings me to my next question – how much of our enjoyment of what we read is determined by our previous experience and where we are at this point in time. I hated The Book Thief the first time I read it, but rated it at the top when reading it 6 months later.
Enough philosophy for the day – I think I will take my audiobook (The Tenant by Katrine Engberg) and plant some geraniums – my happy place!
Margo, that is exactly what I love most about book club, the amazingly different takeaways by different members.
DeleteWe have two relatively new, younger members who are whip smart, and they both always notice and take in more and deeper insights that most of us. Even when I am lukewarm about a book we read I'm eager to know what Dawn and Izzie think about it. And I almost always come home with a fresh perspective.
I usually finish novels, even if I am disappointed or annoyed. A pet peeve would be plot inconsistencies.I remember getting a book from the library and getting to page 50 before I realized I had already read it. The reason? the plot inconsistency that annoyed me the first time was still there. I actually like descriptions and am not a big fan of constant unbelievable action for the sake of keeping me engaged. I want characters that are believable and likeable and maybe a little bit of morality without preaching. We readers are so demanding!
ReplyDeleteAlso don't believe all the on-line reviews! I think that would make a writer crazy. An example: Last year I read and loved a book called Damnation Spring by Ash Davidson. It had received some good press. I went through the reviews on Goodreads and some of them were really ugly. The novel presents a lot of detail about the lives of loggers in Northern California. I found it fascinating. Some reviewers found it boring and thought it should be cut. Get a grip and an attention span and learn something!
Great point about online reviewers. They can be brutal and also intensely personal so... taken with a few helpings of salt.
Delete"Get...an attention span..." - I love it, Gillian!
DeleteHallie, the review you shared is devastating. I'd never write a review for a book I disliked and I certainly can be as snarky as anyone.
ReplyDeleteAlso, put me down for wanting the humor to actually be funny. If characters are amused, let them laugh. I love to find something that makes me laugh out loud when reading. Joy.
Humor in a crime novel is SO TRICKY! But my favorite-est books are loaded with it.
DeleteI agree with much of what has been said, and I'm wondering about the over-write/under-write thing. I recently read a book by a mystery writer (Not a Red), who has been very popular over a number of years and is known for being something of a "literary" mystery writer. Her books are usually long, but her last one had a ridiculous amount of extraneous information (I'm talking hundreds of pages overall). Do seasoned writers get a pass on this stuff? I don't usually read Amazon reviews until after I read a book, because I'm curious if they agree with my feelings on the book, but almost all of them brought up this problem, and many, like me, were big fans of this author overall.
ReplyDeleteMy second pet peeve has to do with place. I love reading books set in Massachusetts and Rhode Island and reading about familiar settings, but I've become almost reluctant about it, because there are writers who aren't super familiar with the places, and it seems like they're trying too hard to throw bits of it in the reader's face to show they know it. But it's still obviously an outsider's view. I recently read a book by a popular author who has lived in Providence for a few years. The story was pretty good, but I ended up throwing the book across the room halfway through because she kept putting in her views of Rhode Island and Rhode Islanders and what they do and don't do. It shouted "outsider" on every page. I guess people who aren't as familiar with the setting would still enjoy it.
My third pet peeve is characters, especially main characters, who are too perfect. Please, please, please, give them some interesting flaws! And not just that they're broke or divorced from a mean ex-husband or have a terrible mother-in-law, something to do with their unique personality!
And I'm also going to say that, although I don't hate it every time, there has been a run of subpar books lately that are written in first person. It seems to be a trend, and while I don't dislike it overall, I think it can make the characters seem self-obsessed and too perfect (see above) if not used well.
Phew! You'd think I didn't enjoy reading, and it's quite the reverse. I do seem to have gone through a run of bad books lately, and I think they could have been greatly improved with good editing. Of course, none of them were by the Reds. I honestly enjoy the books of every writer on this blog!
MaryC, I so agree about overly long books. I may know the author you're talking about. I skipped through her most recent book, looking for the bits with the main protagonists. It felt as though every single subplot/element of the book could have stood as a stand-alone book. I don't need that much detail and when I finished my 'skipping', I felt I'd gotten the gist of the story. I read a series because the characters are engaging and I return because I want more of them. I don't want to have to hunt for their part in the story.
DeleteHallie, if anyone can make a success of such a workshop it's you. I wish I had a finished manuscript to take to such a session.
ReplyDeleteEvery year I try to read authors and books I should have read in the '60s and '70s, when trashy novels held my interest more (I still read good literature, too, but The Valley of the Dolls, et al took a big chunk of my reading time). This year I've so far read two Somerset Maugham, The Painted Veil and The Moon and Sixpence. Neither has held up well. First, Maugham was supremely misogynistic, and second, he was as racist as they come. His stories meander all over the place, and I wonder how he ever managed to get published at all. Some of his prose is lovely, but usually at some wretched character's expense.
Truthfully, the only reason I didn't bail on either one is because I wanted to know what the titles meant. And neither full reading held the answer. Titles should bear at least some resemblance to the story. I know that's a minor issue, but it's not minor to me.
and isn't it cool when that AHA moment and you realize that the title of the book has a hidden meaning that you get only after reading it?
DeleteYes, especially if it relates in more than one way.
DeletePronoun errors, I instead of me, she instead of her, really bug me. As does the right word but the wrong spelling, flower sack dress instead of flour sack is one that stood out for me. I also hate when a peripheral character who is barely in the book turns out to be the villain or a normal character turns out to be a raging homicidal maniac and no one had a clue.
ReplyDeleteThese sound like errors you'd find in self-published books, or books whether the author is a huge bestseller and rejects everything the editor suggests. Been known to happen.
DeleteMaureen, I just saw the "flower sack" mistake in a book and was equally appalled. Grammatical errors and typos that accumulate will prevent me from reading another book by that author.
DeleteMy 7-year-old grand-nephew is reading a series by Tracey West, called The Dragonmasters. "There's good news and bad news, Aunt Flora," he says as he pauses to explain to me what's going on now. Each book introduces a new dragon, new characters, etc., but he keeps them all straight, remembers plot points and character traits from previous books, and is totally engaged when he's reading. This is what I want from my own reading experiences--I want to be totally engaged. I don't want plot holes so big Lightyear could blast into hyperspace through them. I don't want repetitive giggles or sighs or grimaces from characters. I don't want typos that show up on page one. And, dammit, if you need specialized information for a setting, time period, or occupation, then do the research and get it right, but I left school a loooong time ago and I don't need a lecture on any of it.
ReplyDeleteI want an experience that lingers when I read a book, like my grand-nephew sitting nearby laughing out loud at a snippet of dialogue, or singing the baby pirate song with gusto in the middle of the book. I want to have fun when I read, too!
"Good news and bad news, Aunt Flora." Totally precious!
DeleteYour grand-nephew sounds like an excellent reader! At 7?!?!?
ReplyDeleteSummer reading program is about to begin at the local library. I see way too many kids who come in and get piles and piles of books to earn prizes every week. His dad and his uncle and I want our little guy to read for the pleasure of immersing oneself in the story. He's allowed to say that he doesn't like a book--he doesn't have to finish if it doesn't appeal to him. Get 'em while they're young, I say, and we'll have a reader for life!
DeleteBAH to Google & Blogger for making my early morning comment disappear into the ether!
ReplyDeleteDon't senselessly kill off a beloved main (or supporting) character with no warning! The traumatized surviving partner has to try & deal with the loss, but you've lost me as a reader.
Too many characters! Maybe it's my COVID brain-fogged mind, but I can't keep track of a huge cast of 20-30 characters, especially in a new series.
In cozies, the amateur sleuth who should know better but still setups some TSTL confrontation with the suspected killer. I just finished book #9 in a cozy series. The amateur sleuth met the suspected killer alone. She made sure her cell phone was recording their conversation but did nothing else to protect herself & is almost choked to death until a bystander witnesses the attack. Yeesh.
I mostly read ARCs, so typos, grammatical errors are "forgiven".
P.S. Another pet peeve is the (prolonged) unresolved love triangle. If you're lucky enough to write a long-running series, don't keep the readers hanging so long. No decision after 3, 5,10,15,20 books? Bye bye.
DeleteI wondered where you were earlier, Grace. Also, quaking that the TSTL instance you mentioned was one of mine - except I don't THINK I've written my protag recording a conversation. (Please message me if it was one of my books!)
DeleteEDITH: It was not you, but another writer friend. I was disappointed.
DeleteGrace, I feel the same way about unresolved love triangles and have stopped reading series because of this. Twenty books in and we're still dealing with the same old dithering? Can't believe the protag is so mesmerizing to keep two guys dancing for so long!
DeleteFlora, we should all be so mesmerizing!
DeleteLove triangles... you can see why authors maintain them. Remember Moonlighting? A great TV series w Cybill Shepherd and Bruce Willis that fell apart when the two of them tied the knot.
DeleteWe have several Reds (most?) whose protags have tied the knot and made the series even stronger!
DeleteSeries with characters that have evolving relationships work for me. They can fall in love & get married. Great! Or some decide to break up, and that fine, too.
DeleteGrace: Yup. To all of it. I especially like.it when authors take on the hard work of developing relationships rather than cleaving to a continual, usually boring, conditional relationship. I also like to see relationships that aren't traditional developed....like male/female working relationships that don't become romances.
DeleteI completely agree with this, c d. Love is great, but those relationships are written about so much that I tend to become more interested in friendship/sibling/working partner relationships that evolve over time.
DeleteDEAUN & MARY: True, there are only a few long-running series that have really good platonic male/female relationships.
DeleteUGH, that anonymous comment was me. And those senseless deaths I mentioned had nothing to do with the main plot: A pipe bomb in the couple's mail box & an unprovoked stranger shooting. Both were bombshells on the last page of the 2 books that made my jaw drop.
DeleteHallie, thank you for such an interesting essay today. And yes, I'd take that class. In fact, I'd take it tomorrow! Why? Just what I need. Trying to write something completely new, the WIP didn't really come alive until about half way through ( What was before? Kind of wandering in the woods, I think) I see major ripping/restructuring ahead. As a reader? I am always baffled by readers who feel obligated to finish a book. Life is too short for that and it's the job of the writer (including me) to make it worth your time. Too often, I find that about 50-100 pages in, I don't feel any desire to get back to reading. I just don't care. The characters are not interesting enough, the story isn't convincing enough,it is so formulaic I feel like I've read it before. A problem for writers is that sometimes a theme - Downton Abbey-inspired, anyone? - just shows up and writers are not actually imitating each other, It just feels like that. I am pretty tolerant of the occasional factual mistake - it is so easy to slip - but sometimes they are so sloppy I don't trust anything else. Ex: a recommended historical series. The heroine is described - twice!- pulling her skirts down to make sure her knees are covered in a meeting. It is 1915! (Try a real lazy Google search like "crowd scenes World War 1" and see how immediately how wrong that is) Anyway...please keep us informed about this class :-)
ReplyDelete"Baffled by readers who feel obligated to finish a book" — me, too! Reading is something I do for myself!
DeleteTriss, that feeling like you need to slash and burn is wonderful! It's the only way. But figuring out what to slash and burn and what to tighten and reposition and what to add and... It's why I'm thinking of starting the workshop with INVENTORYING what you have. Because there's good stuff in there... as my mother would say, you don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater..
DeleteApologies: I left out an important word in my above sentence about "lazy Google search" -PHOTO. The search is supposed to be of photos. To see skirt lengths in 1915!
DeleteHALLIE: Sometimes nothing is wrong with the book because I am just not in the right mood to read the book. Other than that, which books are DNF for me? There was a rom com novel by a very popular author. I was shocked by the F bombs that it was a DNF for me. Another rom com that was a DNF by another author were for several reasons: The obvious hate that the "hero" has for women, the way he treated her with contempt, and the story was bland.
ReplyDeleteIn mysteries, I like seeing the solution to a mystery. Sometimes there is a cliffhanger. Depending on the cliffhanger, do I decide if I want to continue reading the series? Sometimes it is worth it if I like the novel. If the only reason I'm reading the novel is to find out what happens, then it is not worth it because there never seems to be a solution to the mystery - just more cliffhangers. Sometimes the writing is blase. One of my favorite series challenges me in terms of learning new words. I do not mind a challenge as long as it is Not too Challenging.
There is a popular historical fiction novel that was a DNF for me because I found it hard to follow and I felt like I need a PhD to be able to understand the novel.
The typos and the grammatical errors can be distracting. Sometimes there is a break in the sentence and I never find the rest of the sentence in the novel. If the grammatical "errors" are part of the character's speech like "Cockney speech", I can understand that. I once read a biography that was full of grammatical errors by an author who had a Masters in Education. It was a self published novel.
The novel can be a DNF for me for many reasons. Grammatical errors, typos, or the language is hard to follow.
Diana
I agree, encountering new words in a novel can be fun. But too many can just bog down the dramatic flow. Capturing a character's dialect and speech patterns can be tricky.
DeleteDialect can be really difficult. Back in the day, authors wrote it down as if they were socio-linguist grad students transcribing, and it's cringy to read today. I try to use spoken grammar to carry the sense of it: "I ain't seen no one with a gun on my land."
DeleteAs for cliffhangers, as someone who is notorious for mine Diana, I can say if you're left wondering about the mystery, the author is doing it wrong. A good cliffhanger either brings a secondary plot line to the fore and leaves the reader wondering OR it introduces a new problem at the last moment, as a kind of promise to the reader that this is what you're going to hear about in the next book. Classic example from my own work: the last lime of one novel is, "I'm pregnant."
Hallie, I am loving today's blog! I'd love to sit in and listen as you and your group work on their manuscripts. I just picked up a book by a new-to-me author, CAROLINA MOONSET by Matt Goldman. I don't know if I came across the title here on JRW or elsewhere, but the writing is wonderful so far. I like the characters, the setting, the title is meaningful but I'm not at the point in the book where its significance is fully revealed. The plot is not full of holes--I want to figure this out. I can see where we're going, but I have no idea how we're going to get there and I love it. This is the kind of book that makes me a happy reader.
ReplyDeleteWriting it down... that book is set in Beaufort SC which is where I set one of my books. And the reviews are spectacular. A reader who agrees with you posted: "The plot had all the necessary elements- murder, mystery, intrigue and romance! I couldn’t stop reading!" Now THAT'S a reader review we'd all covet.
DeleteMatt Goldman is terrific. A wonderful person, and such a talented writer! This is his first standalone. He wrote the Nils Shapiro series, and now he's going another direction. With much success!
DeleteI'm on vacation this week, and after reading your review and a few others, I think I might need to add this book to my vacation reading list. Thank you!
DeleteFLORA: Love Matt Goldman's Shapiro books, but will seek out this new stand-alone, thanks.
DeleteHallie, thank you for this post. It is always interesting to hear the process and to think about books as author's work.
ReplyDeleteYou asked for pet peeves. I have a few.
(1) Cardboard female characters, I am always on the lookout for male authors who can really write women characters realistically. (Yes, I know that women idealize men too. I have to admit, that even Peter Wimsey is an exercise in wish fulfillment.)
(2) Gratuitous sexual violence especially if it is wrought on the protagonist who then shows how "strong" she is by not getting "too upset" about it all, but of course, gets even usually with equal violence. Generally, though I find sexual violence and child predation to be just too hard to read.
(3) Smart women who do unnecessarily stupid things to create drama. (e.g. Help will be here in 30 seconds, but I have to chase this person with a gun into the wilderness, by myself, unarmed, without telling anyone where I'm going while leaving my phone on the counter....again.)
(4) Patronizing another culture or obvious cultural bias. I was once deeply into a contemporary series but stopped reading when the author chose for his protagonist to describe a domestic worker, as a matter or course, as a "coloured girl." He was English, she was South Asian. It may be a common usage, but it was gratuitous in the text. And there is so much out there to read, why should I pay money to someone who thinks that is ok?
I notice editorial mistakes and cringe when a protagonist uses the same phrase for the 72nd time, but if the rest of the story carries me along, I keep reading and will probably buy the next book too.
Excellent points! Smart women doing stupid things is high on my list, too. That's when the author lets the plot (instead of the character) drive the story. You have to be willing to ditch your outline when it doesn't make sense.
Delete"even Peter Wimsey is an exercise in wish fulfillment." Laughing. Yes! I was still a teenager when I asked my mother, "Why is it that all the great men are written by women?"
DeleteHah! I didn't know there was a term for it until today. TSTL has entered my vocabulary.
DeleteCan you please sign me up for this class?
ReplyDeleteMy pet peeve is: nothing happens. People just yammer yammer yammer and it takes a long time to get anywhere.
AND: Person A says something in a conversation: "How are you?" Before answering, Person B goes off into a long internal monologue about something that happened in the past, like: how well I remember the last time someone asked how I was..... and then, two stream-of-consciousness paragraphs later, Person B replies: "Fine."
At LEAST have the phone ring, and have Person A say--oh, hang on for a minute. THEN person B can think.
Laughing! Yes indeedy. Something needs to HAPPEN!
DeleteHank, I will NEVER forget your main comment after you read the first fifteen pages of my first-novel manuscript: "Nothing happens." Oops!
DeleteEDITH: Lucky you to get that first critique from Hank, and lesson learned!
DeleteI'm guilty of this. I tend to go on and on in scenes because I love writing dialog. It's so easy! I'm writing a scene right now I know my editor will want to slash but I just can't help myself. There should be an overwriters anonymous group.
DeleteYes! SO with you!
DeleteAww...thank you, Grace! And Edith, xxxx--someone told ME exactly the same thing about MY book, once upon a time....xx
DeleteAlso, thank you, whoever reminded us, typos and dropped lines and grammatical errors and the like will OFTEN be in advance reader copies--but most often they get fixed in the final. And please don't blame the author for that. The books are clearly marked UNEDITED and UNCORRECTED.
ReplyDeleteHallie, you've got great material for your workshop here!!
ReplyDeleteI’m a newbie here (wondering what TSTL is). I’d say what comes to mind in a recent read is getting closer to the end and realizing the least likable character in the book wasn’t a red herring, they were indeed the villain. I kept thinking, the reveal is going to blindside me and it will be great. Nope. It was the obvious choice and I was so annoyed I stomped around my kitchen ranting. I couldn’t believe I’d invested that much time only to discover the snide, backstabbing, nasty person also was a murderer. There has to be an arc for the villain. They can’t be one-note.
ReplyDeleteTSTL: "Too stupid to live." Like when there's a killer on the loose and the protagonist goes alone into the dark basement. Just. No.
DeleteThat’s hilarious. It’s a big pet peeve of my husband. He used to actively root for Liz on Blacklist to get the axe because she was always doing dumb stuff.
DeleteToo Stupid To Live
DeleteToo much exposition/back story, especially in the first few chapters. That's a momentum killer for the story and makes me unlikely to pick up the next in the series. (It's rare that I stopped reading a book, too OCD. But I will stop a series.)
ReplyDeleteThat's a killer for me, Mark. As soon as a character starts an "As you know, Bob," speech, my eyes roll into the back of my head. Trust your readers' intelligence, authors!
DeletePoor research, recent book-author put real person in a story that takes place five years after he died
ReplyDeletein real life
That's why I don't so historical fiction, as much as I love it. It's hard enough getting things in the contemporary world right!
DeleteThe real person was George Gershwin. How difficult was it to check someone that prominant?
ReplyDeleteDescription of place can be such a tricky skill. I want to know where the story is taking place, mentions of what the area and climate are like, but I certainly don't want a page's worth of the hillside in spring. However, and remember I said I know it's tricky, I do want some more setting detail when it adds to the atmosphere of the book. Some settings are truly a character in themselves. If the setting plays an important part, then it needs to be given its due. For some reason, I'm fond of snowed-in stories (even though they seem to have become almost too popular) or stories where the setting is a challenge, hence a character in its importance. One of the reasons I enjoy Jane Harper's books so much is that she does place setting so brilliantly, and ones that haven't been overdone. Her book The Lost Man so deserves an award for place setting and making it come alive. There really should be awards for the different elements in books. And, back to the snowbound stories, these days there really needs to be an exceptional story for that setting. I've enjoyed some other cold weather settings quite a lot, without the being snowbound, but still the climate is an element of importance. And, if you're going to set a book in a place where the setting is an essential part of the story, especially in a famous place such as Paris or London or NYC or Budapest or Scotland, incorporate the feeling of that place into the story. As you might have guessed place is important to me. Not that I can't read a story that could take place anywhere and still be the same story. I can absolutely handle that, but I do so love books that enfold me into the place. Oh, and there are sometimes books that have target audiences for the much-described setting, such as The Guide by Peter Heller. If you like mountain streams/rivers and surrounding forests in an isolated fishing resort, then this book will satisfy your desire for the natural beauty of such a place in Colorado. Heller's is more a poetic phrasing and it is delightful, if you want that, and I did want that in this surprising Covid book.
ReplyDeleteNo redeemable outcome. I'm sure that there are readers who don't mind the villain coming out on top, but a satisfactory conclusion for me is one where the bad guys or gals are finally thwarted in their evil. I haven't read many books where the villains are the winners, but two of the most popular books in the last, oh, five or six years have caused me to go into book-throwing-across-the-room mode. Sometimes a best seller isn't for everyone.
And, the book being too long problem. I'm familiar with writing too much, intimately familiar with it. I've cut paragraphs from reviews and been so glad I did. Even so, my reviews tend to run long. So, maybe I should have more tolerance for authors who enjoy reading their writing and don't know when to stop. I thoroughly enjoy a long book, 400 pages plus, but there are some stories that overstay their welcome, not many, but they are fairly easy to determine. I've read all but the last Outlander book (and I will read it), and those babies are either close to a 1,000 pages or over, and I never remember feeling that they were too long. But, back to reading popular books, I read one little bird (or big bird) a while back that easily needed 200 pages chopped off. I'm a slow reader, so please don't tie me down with superfluous.
One more thing. I think this might be a personal quirk of mine, but I like to know how old the main characters are. In fact, I'm someone who enjoys a list of characters at the beginning of a tale, with a quick description, like, "Sally, the new bookstore owner of Tales of Mystery, who at 43 is trying to start over after her goat business went bust." I don't need all the background information in the beginning, and if it's a series, the backstories eventually materialize, but a little goes a long way in the beginning.
I'd say my main pet peeves are repetitive descriptions of characters. Naming no names, but you'll probably be able to guess, a favorite author had one book in which a recurring character was referred to as "the crazy old . . . (fill in the blank)" almost every time she was mentioned. I was listening to the audiobook, so this kind of repetition stood out, unfortunately. Also, constantly descriptive dialog tags--he choked, she growled, he howled, etc. And the number of times a character reacts "in shock" mouth open or not, is generally in inverse proportion to the number of shocking events. And cosy covers with animals on tables of food, I'd rather not thanks. I'm with Ann on the abs! --Melanie
ReplyDeleteI think you said this, Hallie, that we have to care about the characters. I'm always overjoyed to feel the same way as the protagonist if they've given me reason to. I've stopped reading novels that seem to take their characters from another novel or streaming show, but changed the plot. If I'm not in their shoes with language and supporting narrative, no matter if the person is unlikable, I'm either bored or disappointed. Then again, I know how the publishing world pushes writers to put out books asap. Also, I've started some books and not finished, then picked them up years later and loved them. Mood. My mood.
ReplyDelete