CR Isleib with his engineer corps in Wales, 1944
LUCY BURDETTE: World War 2 began when my father was in college. He wanted nothing more than to join the military and fight for what he thought was right. He left college in the middle of his four years to enlist, and spent his time in the army in an Army engineer corps that arrived in Europe shortly following D-Day. He bonded so powerfully with the men in his platoon, that I sometimes wonder if anything coming after that experience felt quite as meaningful. I thought it would be interesting to ask two of my favorite veterans, my husband John and brother Doug, some questions about military service and war and the meaning of Veterans Day.
Tell us a bit about your service, how you came to be in the military and how you think it might have shaped your life since.
DOUG ISLEIB: I served in the Marine Corps for 28 years, the first 20 as a pilot, primarily helicopters, and the last 8 managing Marine aviation acquisition programs. You’re right about our Dad’s pride in his Army service – he definitely was the driving force getting me to join the military, and specifically to apply to the Naval Academy, I’m pretty sure I would not have thought of it on my own! I loved being a Marine, (still do - the old once a Marine, always a Marine thing) and I loved flying. I had some interesting assignments, including being a flight instructor for fledgling Navy and Marine aviators, and serving as a Presidential Helicopter pilot for Presidents Reagan and Bush.
My favorite tours though, were being a Huey pilot and Marine officer in Marine Light/Attack helicopter squadrons. It’s a little hard to put into words without sounding pretentious, but the joy and challenge and pride in serving with a squadron of Marines, all unbelievably patriotic, mission-focused, self sacrificing and team oriented was an absolute privilege.
My time in the Marine Corps certainly did shape my life after retiring, both in the way I think and act and believe, and also the career opportunities to manage and support Marine aviation helicopter programs. I felt so lucky to manage the development, test and acquisition of the replacement aircraft for my beloved Huey!
JOHN BRADY: Thanks for asking, Lucy. Let me start by saying that this is a great day to honor all of those who have served to defend our country. I served, but mine was nothing compared to those who made greater sacrifices. (Pic to the right is John's dad Bud in his whites.)
I was in college in the late 60s and the Vietnam war was raging. So I went into Army ROTC, thinking at least if I had to go in I would be an officer, or maybe the war would be over before I graduated. Unfortunately it wasn’t. I entered active duty in the Signal Corps at Fort Gordon, GA. One day a clerk called me up and congratulated me on the orders sending me to Vietnam. I was desolate and considered going to Canada, because I thought the war was a terrible mistake, a judgement I think history has confirmed. Fortunately I was an administrator there and was never in any direct danger. My little joke is that if people ask what I did there I tell them that I commanded an LSD. I respond to their quizzical look by explaining that LSD stands for Large Steel Desk.
I learned a lot from the experience, maturing and becoming more responsible. I was exposed to people from all kinds of backgrounds, which helped to expand my view of the world. My tour actually included some great adventures, and afterwards I went to graduate school for international management. So the experience was life changing. That is one reason I am a proponent of universal service, as I think a year of service should be required of every 18 year old —military, teaching, or some type of community service.
LUCY: The war that many of us are watching closely is the terrible conflict in Ukraine. This makes me wonder: How would I possibly have the courage to serve my country the way those Ukrainians are? Possibly because they are fighting for their own country on their own soil, there seems less choice. There is no question about whether it’s right to defend their people, it’s either serve or watch the country get overrun by the Russians. I wonder what your thoughts are as you watch the Ukrainian conflict?
DOUG: I truly believe what you read over and over again in books written by folks who have served in combat, that while love of country and pride in service are strong motivators, and effective training is extremely important, in combat the single strongest motivator is to not let down your brothers and sisters fighting alongside you. Magnified many times over, the Ukranians fighting for their homeland have created an esprit and force that the Russians greatly underestimated.
JOHN: Your second question is timely. The Ukrainian war is an example to me of a “good” war, at least from the Ukrainian point of view. Same for WWII. My dad was on a Navy ship in the Pacific. The kamikaze planes terrified him, but he was proud to serve. Defending your country from an invasion is pretty concrete, ya gotta do it.
LUCY: These days, it seems like veterans and patriotism and love for our country have gotten all mixed up with the fractiousness of our politics. What would you hope for our country as we celebrate Veterans Day?
JOHN: Other wars are less clear cut. An impulsive decision can destroy millions of lives. Lately our track record hasn’t been so good. As citizens we need to elect leaders that will protect our country, but have the wisdom and self restraint not to get us into wars of adventure that destroy lives and end up in failure. Our servicemen and women are too precious to waste.
DOUG: On Veterans Day, I wish our country’s leaders and wannabe leaders truly take to heart the unbelievable sacrifices made by our nation’s warriors, and make service to our nation’s best interests their guiding light.
How about you Reds? Questions for our visiting veterans or comments about your experiences?
To Doug and John and everyone else that served, thank you for your service.
ReplyDeleteAmen, and welcome back, Joan, with sympathies. We missed you.
DeleteThank you, Edith.
DeleteJoan, you were missed.
DeleteGood to see you again, Joan.
DeleteDebRo
Thank you . . . it's good to be here . . . .
DeleteDOUG and JOHN: Thank you for your service. My parents, uncles & aunts were children during WWII. Post WWII Japan was not allowed to have a full military, except for domestic defense, so no one in my family has been in active military service.
ReplyDeleteOttawa has a large in-person Remembrance Day ceremony this morning for the first time since 2019. I will be watching on TV since I am in Montreal this week.
This post made me tear up. Thank you, Doug and John, for sharing your experiences and hopes, and Lucy for inviting them.
ReplyDeleteJohn, I can imagine your conflict at hearing of orders to go to Vietnam. I'm of the same era and had more than one friend who was drafted and opted for Canada instead. Doug, did you fly in combat? That must be terrifying.
My introverted, intellectual father was drafted out of college for WWII. Not really a combat type, he served as a radio operator in remote Indian mountains, but I think he brought back good memories of his service, and we would sing military songs around the campfire.
I lived off base with a boyfriend in the Navy in Japan just after the US pulled out of Vietnam and got to know a few of the privates he worked with.
Thanks folks. It is so interesting to hear how varied other people's service tours were. The military was life changing for me in many good ways. Today is the actual day, 50 years ago, that I went off active duty. How could it be that long ago?
ReplyDeleteSorry, the previous "Thanks folks" comment was from me, John Brady
ReplyDeleteRoberta, thank you for this post. It is so important to make "service" about real people every chance we get.
ReplyDeleteDoug and John, you and your stories are so welcome here today.
My father and his two brothers all served. My dad served during WWII, as did several of my uncles, because that was a war that called for everyone to do their part. Dad's brother, 11 years younger, served in the navy during the Korean War and their youngest brother was a career fighter pilot whose service spanned the Vietnam War.
I often think of all these men, now all gone, but especially today.
You had a raft of veterans in your family Judy! We are grateful for their service.
DeleteThank you to all who have served.
ReplyDeleteJohn and Doug, thank you both for your service, on Veterans' Day, and always.
ReplyDeleteMy uncles and a couple cousins on my mom's side served, but no one on my dad's, as far as I know. One uncle was a POW in the WWII, and another was never the same after being in the Korean Conflict. My cousin's daughter just posted a newspaper clipping on Facebook of her dad and his brother, my two closest cousins, who were both in the service when I was in high school. The clipping talks about each of their posts--the oldest in the Army in a med unit Stateside, and the younger one in Vietnam in the Air Force. 20 and 19, the 1968 article called them "boys". The Air Force cousin, a gentle soul, had such horrific experiences in Vietnam that he never spoke of them until just before he died a few years ago, and even then he only alluded to the horrors. By the time my brother joined his service did not include killing anyone or avoiding being killed himself.
Back when we had mandatory military service, everyone had family members and friends joining up or getting enlisted. Or avoiding it, somehow. John and Doug, do you think the military has changed since then, with so many from other countries now serving in our armed forces? My nephew was in a definite minority when he was in the Army, with his fellow soldiers from all over Central and South America. And your point about learning to get along with people of all backgrounds, John, hit me solidly. That was so true. We need more of that today, too.
Thanks all, for the comments. Karen, to your question, I do think without a doubt that an all volunteer military is different than one that is not. Either can be an effective fighting force thanks to the really effective indoctrination and training given to new members of each of the Services. Maybe equally important, I think our military has changed with the times as our society's norms have evolved over the years. For sure, the training and daily "rules of engagement" that our Dad experienced in the Army during WW II is very different than a new recruit would experience today. For example, the practice of the Gunnery Sergeant in charge of the Squadron's mechanics taking a non performing young Marine behind the shop for a beat down, wouldn't fly today! I do think that the camaraderie, teamwork and devotion to duty today is as much an essential cornerstone for our forces as it was back in our Dad's day.
DeleteTo John's point about the Army exposing him to people from different backgrounds, I agree. I can say without a doubt that within the units I served in, my fellow Marines' background or race DID NOT MATTER. Performance, work ethic, integrity, loyalty, and team work were what mattered and what you were judged on.
This essay was written in 2018 and sent to a radio programme that was honouring Remembrance Day. Please delete if you find it inappropriate to this conversation.
ReplyDeleteMargo
November 2018
About two weeks ago, I had an email from my son, saying his 7 yr old son needed a picture of
someone in the war. We provided some information on the child’s grandfather’s uncle Jack who was killed in WW2 – a person and event that will not mean anything to my son or the child.
That brought forward a discussion on wars, fighting and remembering. In my family no one that we know has been involved in any conflict. My grandmother’s brother was killed in WW1 – long before he was ever any more than a name that came up when we were doing genealogy and counting the kids in Gran’s family. My father who is now 95, finished university as the war was ending. His two brothers were in the army and navy, but neither served in active duty. The closest was Uncle Donald who arrived in Europe as the war was over, so turned around and came home. The aforementioned Uncle Jack died before my husband was born. He was nothing but a ghost.
I was born in 1949, so war to me was the Vietnam war, and my only involvement was chatting with the draft dodgers who lived in the next apartment in Saskatchewan, and listening to Buffy Saint Marie’s poignant Universal Soldier. Lessons of Korea come from watching MASH. Thankfully all the international skirmishes since then whether they be peace keeping or active fighting have not involved any of our family or the extended family. We have been lucky.
As I grow older, I am more and more convinced that any war is an abomination on humanity, and those ‘brave fighters’ are nothing more than some parent’s frightened child.
I find my history is fed by literature and songs. The haunting sounds, and the forced bravado of the war songs tells me of the world wars. Songs of my youth mark Vietnam. However, there is no song that triggers in me any comprehension of the tragedy of war and the pathos of coming home more than Eric Bogle’s And The Band Played Waltzing Matilda. The combined Australian and New Zealand army was devastated in Gallipoli in World War I. This song describes war as futile, and gruesome, and criticizes those who choose to glorify it.
So, if you would, please play this song as we remember that war is not a romantic adventure, but a horrible, horrible event with consequences not just on the battlefield, but in life forever after. This is what we need not to forget.
I love And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda. Eric Bogle has another song that I always think of on Veteran's Day/Remembrance Day: No Man's Land, The song is directed to the grave in Flanders of a young soldier: "did you really believe them when they told you the cause
Deletedid you really believe that this war would end wars
well the suffering, the sorrow, the glory, the shame
the killing and dying it was all done in vain"
Yes! Armistice Day, as it was originally called, celebrated the END of war, soldiers coming HOME. It is all about peace, and how to recover from the ravages of war - physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. It is a solemn day, for me, not a rah-rah-rah day.
DeleteThank you, John and Doug, for your service! I'm also remembering all who serve and have served this Veteran's Day.
ReplyDeleteMy dad was blind in one eye and deaf in one ear, so not fit for combat, but he served in the Royal Army Pay Corps during WWII in his home town of Leeds. I heard so many stories about WWII that as a small child one of my fears was of falling bombs.
While I would love to see war disappear from our human reality here on our shared planet, I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon. I look at the Ukrainians so bravely standing up against an authoritarian takeover of their country. I hope that if it were my country, I would be fighting too.I agree with the idea of mandatory service--it would help instill that sense of the greater good, which is much needed right now.
Thank you for your service. Blessing and best wishes on this Veterans' Day.
ReplyDeleteDoug and John, thank you for your service.
ReplyDeleteMy family has served in every conflict since the French and Indian Wars before we were the United States of America. Mostly men--some died young in combat, some stood at the Appomattox Courthouse when Lee surrendered, some came home with shell shock from WWI, some endured nightmares from WWII until the day they died, one came home only to have the war linger from the effects of agent orange, we have served right up to the present-day conflicts. I stood by the roadside last year, joining hundreds of people from my town and the surrounding communities to honor a young medic who died during the evacuation of Kabul.
ReplyDeleteI understand the bonds that form (years after my father's death, his commanding officer told me that not a day went by that he didn't think of my dad), the desire to serve one's country--the need to defend those who need our help--but no one in my family ever glorified war--"let's get the job done and go home"--I think that's always been our motto.
To John and Doug, thank you for sharing your stories with us.
Thank you Doug and John for your service. I come from a military family too. My father, was a pilot in WWII (Catalina) and my brother-in-law (Capt. Jeff Bacon writer of Broadsides cartoon in the Navy Times). I grew up in a military town where I thought every American worked in the military. When I found out a neighbor's father was an engineer for a private company, the truth came out!
ReplyDeleteThank you veterans and thank you Lucy for sharing with us. I'm more or less of their same generation and in high school I seriously considered going into the Army nursing program. Ultimately though I didn't and have often wondered if I would have had the right stuff.
ReplyDeleteSo moving and enlightening to read this. Thank you so much for sharing - military service should never be taken for granted. People who are truly doing something for “the greater good”
ReplyDeleteThank you, John and Doug. Such a different feel to being called up in WW2 and Vietnam. My dad fought in Egypt in WW2 and was proud of his service and what they achieved. He felt he did his bit to defeat Hitler. He went to reunions every year. Rhys
ReplyDeleteOur dad went to those reunions every year too, until the guys grew too old to hold them.
DeleteThank you to your husband and brother for sharing their experiences.
ReplyDeleteMy Grandfather at the age of 17 enlisted to fight in the First World War. He was born on 9 November 1899 so he was not quite 18 when he enlisted. He sailed for Europe with other American soldiers when their ship was attacked by the eneny. They all got into lifeboats and were rescued by a British Navy ship. Once my grandfather arrived at the military hospital in Southampton? Reading? they let my great grandparents know what happened. Unfortunately my great grandparents thought my grandfather was killed because they got a letter from the War Office that he was killed in action. For a few days, they really thought he died.
My Grandfather was in England on Armistice Day. he took a photo of the Armistice parade in London.
Thinking about Ukraine too.
Diana
Tried to comment yesterday. Diana
ReplyDeleteI sincerely thank you, John and Doug, for your service to our country.
ReplyDeleteI have an ancestor who served in the Revolutionary War. My grandpa moved from Iowa to Bremerton, WA to work as a civilian welding ships. My 94 year old uncle is a Korean War vet. I have two nephews who served in the Marines in Afghanistan and a very dear friend whose Army reserve unit was deployed several times including a he Gulf War.
I am so very grateful for all who protect our freedoms.
Doug and John, thank you for your service.
ReplyDeleteMy dad and all his brothers who were old enough served in the Navy during World War II. (The younger brothers were in the service later.) He also had uncles and cousins who were serving. Most of them were also in the Navy. The local newspaper in my hometown ran a feature article about them. (I have a copy of it somewhere.)
Dad was in the Pacific. When I was a child I had a hard time remembering that there was also fighting in Europe because nearly all my male relatives also served in the Pacific.
Dad talked a lot about his friends, and he kept in touch with one of them for the rest of his life. When I was studying World History in high school, I asked my dad about specific battles he had participated in one night one when I was doing my homework. He started to speak, then burst into tears and left the room. Around then I began to realize that he mostly talked only about his friends and about comical things that happened. On rare occasions he opened up about horrors he had witnessed. We know now that he probably had PTSD.
The war in Ukraine definitely has me wondering what I would do if I had to leave my home due to war. What if my town was destroyed? I went to an all-girl Catholic high school run by Ukrainian nuns. Some teachers and students were Ukrainian-born and many had relatives who were still there. I’m thinking about them a lot these days.
I like the idea of universal service, especially right after high school.
DebRo
This is so powerful, and so thought-provoking. Thank you. My Dad, a wonderful charming brilliant talented man, was in the Battle of the Bulge at age 18. And taken prisoner by the Nazis, marched barefoot through the snow, and put in a prison camp. (with his high school colleague Kurt Vonnegut.) He was eventually freed when the Red Army liberated the camp. He went on to be an author of two published non-fiction books on American music, a career diplomat with a USIA, and a poet. He never, EVER, felt comfortable talking about it. And as as result, we only know the barest bits of information. I know it haunted him, and it haunts me, too.
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for taking the time today. And then.
Another benefit I got out of being in the Army was making friends that I never would have run into. I sometimes find myself thinking, whatever happened to so and so. I sure enjoyed meeting them, even if I am only in Christmas Card contact with one of them. Great to hear about other's family and friends in the service. I did know several WWII vets for whom the war was the greatest experience of their life.
ReplyDeleteJohn and Doug, Thank you for sharing with us and thank you for your service. We are so indebted to you and all that served.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Doug and John, for your service. I'm so appreciative of all the men and women who have served in the armed forces and their families who also sacrifice much. My husband was called from Reserve to Active Duty in 2002 and over the next ten years served at the Pentagon, Central Command in Tampa, and Ft. Leavenworth. After, he worked for Northrop Grumman in simulated training of Army troops. He went to Afghanistan for six months, and while he was not in combat, he was always in precarious situations. And, he went into this active service as our son was going into high school and our daughter was entering college. While my husband tried to get home as often as he could and as a family we had some amazing times in visiting D.C. in particular, our son basically didn't have a father around during his high school years, an important time to have both parents. In all, my husband was gone sixteen years, and there was definitely some adjustment when he retired. I think of those families who went through WWII or the Korean "conflict" or Vietnam, the service of a central figure in the family and the coping of those left behind. In these instances, a homecoming was such a miraculous event, and, yet, the service member had to assimilate back into a world so different than he/she had been serving in war. Families welcomed home members who were changed by what they'd experienced. It often was a major challenge for both those who had served and those who had remained behind to carry on the family life. And, of course, those service members who never returned home to be with their families again, giving their lives for the rest of us, left families who had to learn how to be a family without their loved one.
ReplyDeleteJohn and Doug, thank you for your service, and thank you for sharing such thought-provoking stories with us today. My dad didn't serve in WWII, but three uncles who were younger all served in the Pacific.
ReplyDeleteI have the utmost respect for those who have stepped forward to do their duty in peacetime and in war. Generations of my family have served as citizen soldiers when called upon. My husband was a grunt in Vietnam. My son was a cav scout in Iraq. The differences in how they were received home by the public broke my heart. Pat D
ReplyDeletethat is heartbreaking Pat. I can't imagine how it felt to watch that....
DeleteThank you for your service. My Dad also was in the Army Corps of Engineers, he was in Alaska and they built the Alaskan Highway. He was so proud that he served during WWII. He kept in touch with his "Army Buddies" until he passed away.
ReplyDeleteIt was a special time for bonding, WWII
DeleteMy dad commanded a triage-and-transport unit and a field hospital during WWII and because, as an officer, he could bring his wife with him during training, I was born in the base hospital. He and his brother served in Europe. His two first cousins, who grew up in the flat downstairs, served in the Pacific. I just came across one of the little flags with the embroidered blue star that hung in the front windows of the two flats. We're here because they were there.
ReplyDeleteI thank them all, even my friend Bruce who joined the Guard to avoid being sent to Nam, came to like the fellowship, and ultimately retired as a general!
EllenK
wow, that's quite a turnaround Ellen!
DeleteInteresting the different reactions to war. My Dad served in the navy during WWII, including the liberation of the Philippines, and eighteen months in occupied Japan. He hated everything about the navy, but especially the racial discrimination of minority US citizen soldiers. He also saw how horribly ravaged Japan was after the dropping of the atomic bomb. In his opinion war and the military especially were never the solution to conflict! He encouraged nephews and anyone related to never join the military.
DeleteKathy R's and others make comments that make me remember certain things I have forgotten. The point that service was hard on the families is forgotten so often. My mother lost all of her hair when I went to Vietnam. There was no explanation other than stress. My siblings sent me packages of smoked oysters and home made cookies wrapped up with popcorn to keep them whole. I was so touched. They also gave me a Sunday subscription to the New York Times, which I savored all week (although it wasn't same day delivery!)
ReplyDeleteI just watched the Greatest Beer Run Ever. Which provoked a whole bunch of mainly positive thoughts; about how free wheeling the country was - we were in the Army but pretty much anything went down. Bad things too of course, this was pre-volunteer Army and there was a lot of tension and unpleasant incidents, drug addiction, etc.
I love hearing these stories, John!
DeleteI agree with the others who have said thank you for your service to our veterans. I was one of those 18-year-olds who was affected by the first lottery draft. I drew a number in the 300s and breathed a sigh of relief. Had I drawn a lower number, I was prepared to enlist even though I felt the Viet Nam war was a huge mistake. It was one of the few times in my life I was happy to be a 'loser.' :-)
ReplyDeleteBoth my parents served in World War II. Dad was in a tank unit badly wounded in the Battle of the Bulge. He spent 18 months in hospital. My mom served in a cryptography unit in the Pentagon. They met after the war in a veterans' service office. Dad also only told funny stories, not sharing the horrors he witnessed.
ReplyDeleteThank you Doug and John for your service. My dad was with the British 8 th army in Egypt. Chasing Rommel across the desert. Actually I think he had a positive experience. It was soldier against soldier in battle, camaraderie and a victory. He went to the reunion every year.
ReplyDelete