HALLIE EPHRON: I was so excited to learn that Natasha Lyonne was back on TV in a show that streams on a channel I get – POKER FACE on Peacock.
I loved her in RUSSIAN DOLL, a mind bending “Groundhog Day” story where the main character keeps reliving the same experiences with different outcomes, trying to “get it right this time.” Completely brilliant, most of the time.
I had the feeling that Lyonne was sort of playing herself. Smart and sardonic, with a who-gives-a-shit attitude which won me over completely.
So I had high hopes for POKER FACE. I dove in and watched 2 episodes, back to back.
Lyonne is terrific. And the character she plays–a human lie detector who can read minds–is smart and funny and sardonic. Think: a redheaded female clairvoyant Columbo.
So far so good. In fact, so far so great!
But here’s the thing. You know how every LAW AND ORDER or CSI begins with the crime? Briefly we see the victim and the situation. Episode in and episode out, it's the same: we glimpse the crime in the first minutes. The rest of the hour is spent investigating, chasing down the perp, and bringing them to justice.
Slam bam. In infinite variations.
POKER FACE does the same thing, but but but… in the first two episodes at least, it spends a good 10 minutes developing the about-to-be-killed-off character who (so far at least) has been thoroughly engaging and delightful. And just as I settle in to enjoy an hour-long show with that character, they’re killed.
BUT BUT BUT… I want to reach out and grab the showrunner and shake them… I was engaged with that character! Committed, if you will.
Now I’m wary of watching more episodes. Will it be more heartbreak? Or maybe it's -- wimping out as I get older, unable enjoy murder mysteries where good-guy characters are set up, only to be bumped off so their killer can be tracked down?
Anyone else having a problem with crime shows that groom us to like a character who becomes a murder victim? Or is that just an essential part of the genre??
I don’t know if it is an essential part of the genre . . . generally, my preference for those crime shows is to get the murder out of the way before I become invested in the character that’s about to meet his or her doom. I really like trying to figure out the “who did it” part of the story and prefer that over losing someone I’ve just become intrigued with . . . .
ReplyDeleteThat about sums up where I'm at too, Joan. And yet and yet and yet... we're always telling writers how important it is to "make the reader care..." and isn't that one way to do it by making the murder matter? Sigh...
DeleteInteresting, Hallie. I don't watch enough shows to be able to speak to that, although I wish I could remember how Unforgotten and other British crime shows do it.
ReplyDeleteBut you made me think about written mysteries. Do you feel the same way about a character you're getting intrigued with on the page who ends up being the body? I tend to kill off unpleasant sorts, but not always.
I guess I think the author should feel free to kill of whomever they want... it's their story... but to take the consequences.
DeleteI still haven't forgiven Tom Robbins for killing off Bonanza Jellybean in EVEN COWGIRLS GET THE BLUES, and it's been 46 years.
ReplyDeleteThis made me chortle out loud.
DeleteI LOVE THIS! Thanks, Jerry!!
DeleteYes! I hate it when that happens. In my opinion, the point of a detective/crime story is to solve the mystery of who dunn-it.
ReplyDeleteHmmm, I can't get POKER FACE here. I often found the victim is usually unlikeable on crime shows so I am not surprised he/she becomes the victim. I haven't watched many recent crime dramas, but there was a new show where a popular character unexpectedly dies in the penultimate episode. I was stunned.
ReplyDeleteStunned is ok... but feeling manipulated and sucker punched? Not so much.
DeleteWe're up to date on Poker Face with a new episode dropping tonight. The writing gets better. I adored the episode in the nursing home with aging hippies. The Texas BBQ joint was clever, too. Keep watching!
ReplyDeleteThanks, Margaret - I will! I'm hanging in with the third episode.
DeleteIn most cozy mysteries, there usually are many people with lots of reasons for killing the victim. Most of the time, we have already witnessed their unpleasant ways. Shrug. No great loss.
ReplyDeleteSome authors will kill someone who does not deserve it and the reader feels sad but you don't put away the book. The show you describe, where a connection is established with a likeable person who is then offed episode after episode, hmmm...No thanks.
But the very worst, IMHO, is to have a gloating villain winning all at the end of the story. Realizing that it happens in real life, does not make it any easier. If I am reading a mystery or thriller, please leave me with a sense of justice served at the end. The same for TV shows and movies.
So, if the process is going to be the same every week on that show, and it gets tedious, change the channel.
Trying to think of a "gloating villain" scenario... maybe Hannibal Lechter? And yet and yet and yet, I'd argue that it completely works in that instance.
DeleteThanks for the tip, Hallie. I too loved Russian Doll and will have a go at Poker Face.
ReplyDeleteOddly enough, I was having the same thoughts about seeing a character I like being killed off much too soon, not to mention any names— smile. But maybe that’s part of my blood lust for all sorts of mysteries and true crime or otherwise.
PS. Loved Jerry’s Groundhog Day drawing
Groundhog day was his favorite holiday. We were thinking of engraving "BOINK" on his tombstone. (That's the sound groundhogs make in Jerry's cartoons when they jump out of the ground}
DeleteThen there is the famous mystery where the narrator is the murderer.
ReplyDeleteAnd the many authors today who write "unreliable narrators" - Dame Agatha was reputedly the first with The Murder of Roger Ackroyd. But (please don't throw pies at me) she didn't really write deeply likable side characters or even give her characters back stories that gave them substance to care for.
DeleteI know you are so right! But there is something about Tommy & Tuppance and of course Miss Marple that I love along with the settings in the English countryside, cottage, church, pub that I love being apart of. I like that it is possible to actually detect from clues who the murderer was. She was so creative.
DeleteIs anyone reading Jeffrey Archer’s William Warwick series where, like a bad penny the arch nemesis keeps coming back? Just the opposite of the good guy losing it. I like books or shows that keep me guessing, such as Line of Duty – are they good or not, do I like them or not? Then there is Unforgotten – gutted I say, didn’t quite see it coming. Just don’t make the plot so convoluted that I can’t follow or find that infinitesimal clue that was left for me.
ReplyDeleteAgree with you on UNFORGOTTEN
DeleteOn the screen or in a book, I hate it when a character I like gets killed. This happens twice in one book that is one of my favorites of that author. In that book, there is so much else going on with other characters--it's a complex mix that left me feeling bereaved, sad, joyous, and relieved all at once. So, depending on the writer's skill, I'll still watch/read.
ReplyDelete"Depending o the skill..." - you've said a mouthful, Flora.
DeleteI think it’s excellent writing when a character dies, and readers have strong feelings about it. It means the character was crafted with dimensions, and enough relatable qualities that allow readers to connect powerfully with the decedent. I indicated a strong character died at the end of one of my Ben Blackshaw thrillers, and I got a flood of “hate mail” such that this character miraculously survived in the next title. Did I cave? Yes. Should I have stood strong and let the dead lie in peace? I’m glad I didn’t. This character has developed into a really compelling person, and this couldn’t have happened without a robust outcry from readers. I’m not in bad company. Didn’t Sir Arthur Conan Doyle resurrect Holmes after a prolonged, if not eternal rest?
ReplyDeleteIs that you, Robert Blake Whitehill?? Yes you were following in the footsteps one other than Sir ACDoyle. I loved the way the TV show SHERLOCK resurrected Holmes. So clever.
DeleteMy mother used to talk about how when Dickens wrote David Copperfield, it was serialized so the next chapter would arrive by train, and readers lined up at the train stations shouting DID DORA DIE? Spoiler: she did. So did her dog.
We liked the first season of "Russian Doll" a lot. The second, we didn't find as engaging. We don't get Peacock, so I haven't watched "Poker Face," although the concept is intriguing.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I'm not thrilled when a character I've gotten really invested in is killed (cough, Ned Stark, cough). Which is why in my writing, if I'm going to kill off a "good guy" character, I try to reflect that through other characters. My hope is that the reader builds sympathy with the victim, but already knows he/she is dead, so there's no heartbreak when he/she dies.
Writing that down: (the reader builds sympathy with the victim, but already knows he/she is dead, so there's no heartbreak when he/she dies) - good advice
DeleteI love shows where supremely unpleasant people get bumped off. If there's a gaggle of them my husband and I try to guess which one is wearing the red shirt. When a good character I'm invested in is killed, I am shocked. And upset.
ReplyDeleteYour comment reminds me of Star Trek... whenever there was a new officer on the bridge you knew it was "dead man walking" - because they rarely bumped off repeating characters (ohh where are you Tasha Yarr?)
DeleteThe original Star Trek is where that came from. Crew members in red shirts were guaranteed to be victims of whatever.
DeleteDefinitely have to check this out! The get to know the victim was one of my favorite parts of British cozies back in the day. I loved that the reader was vested in all the characters. Guessing who got it was almost as much fun as figuring out who did it!
ReplyDeleteI liked the way Castle introduced victims-- the way a police detective would meet them: skewered, poisoned, floating in a pool, etc. You learned the who and the how and the why after the fact. Worked for me.
ReplyDeleteEllenK
I LOVED that show! Loved it!
DeleteI have Peacock, and I’ve been thinking of watching this program. I saw Natasha Lyonne being interviewed on Late Night with Seth Meyers (I watch it on Peacock!) and she compared her program to Colombo, where viewers know right from the beginning who is murdered. But I didn’t know until just now that the victims on Poker Face are likable people! I don’t know now…In real life, good, decent people do get murdered. But I read or watch TV to escape from real life.
ReplyDeleteDebRo
It's rare that the victims are likable people, at least in the mysteries I consume. If they aren't likeable, that creates more suspects for who might have killed them. But it is a good change of pace for the victim to be likeable. However, it does break my heart when that happens.
ReplyDeleteYes, I agree, Mark ... one is pulled in 2 directions... especially when it's well done.
DeleteI don't have Peacock, so I haven't been able to see Poker Face, although I'd like to, since I LOVE Natasha Lyon. (As an aside, I think she's always playing herself, and no matter the place or time period, she always looks like she wandered out of 1970's New York.)
ReplyDeleteI wonder if the showrunners are trying to invert the old one-hour-mystery format, where the victim was a nonentity and the killer was ALWAYS the best known guest star on the show!
I think that's exactly what they're doing. So the focus is on the detective and how she susses out the truth and makes it safely away before becoming the next victim.
DeleteI have a different complaint with Poker Face. Love Natasha Lyonne and the storylines but the sequence is a little strange. My biggest problem is that, once she figures out who "done it", she tells them! This sets up a big struggle with the perp. Why doesn't she get help, first?
ReplyDeleteAnd there, you've put your finger on the question every one of us writing an amateur sleuth needs to address: Why doesn't she just call the police?
DeleteAs Ramona DeFelice Long and Barbara Ross have put it, the amateur sleuth needs the VGR - the Very Good Reason why she's getting involved and not backing away, leaving it all in the hands of the authorities.
DeleteI actually do like getting to know the murder victim before the murder, especially if it's someone I can feel bad about getting murdered. That way I'm really invested in the killer being caught. I enjoyed Natasha Lyonne in Russian Doll, the first season more than the second. I think Peacock is one of the few streaming services I don't have, but I'm going to double check. I'd love to see Poker Face.
ReplyDeleteI don't enjoy losing a likable victim. Yes, I'm a wimp. Yes, this is why i generally kill off characters I don't like (therapy!) in my mysteries. I will cautiously check out Poker Face.
ReplyDeleteI think you're going to like it.
DeleteI think the victim can still have secrets, even if the opening is written from their viewpoint, which it is.
ReplyDeleteI don't like seeing characters that I really care about killed. It can be done and often has to be on TV shows when an actor leaves, but it's still a wrench. I prefer bad people being the victims since there are a ton of suspects. I tried two episodes of Poker Face but didn't enjoy it that much.
ReplyDeleteI also get tired of the tropes in shows like Law and Order. I see how the show wants the viewer to feel sympathy for the victim so that they will be fully engaged in catching the killer. But we know they're going to die, so we resist caring for them when we see them start the show.
ReplyDelete