If I’m not a writer, who am I?

HANK PHILLIPPI RYAN: One of the things I love the very most about Jungle Red is really two things:  Being able to introduce you to an author you may not have heard of, and  bringing back someone you adore as much as I do. 

Do you know Charles Salzberg? He is absolutely brilliant, and completely charming, and I’m not sure how to say this, but a genuinely devoted citizen of book world. As an author, and as a teacher, and as a human being, he is incredibly special. 

His brand new book, MAN ON THE RUN is out Tuesday, hurray! And it has even Lee Child raving: calling it “smart, sly, and compelling, the very definition of intelligent suspense.”

(I’m not sure about the sly part, but the rest of that endorsement could apply to Charles himself.)

And psssst. One of his writing students you may well have heard of.  Read this interview to find out! 

As you are hearing, I could go on. But now, get your Sunday coffee and read this.  I’ll let Charles do– most of –the talking.  (And not right now, but afterward, go to his website. It is HILARIOUS. Look at it carefully, and have patience.)

HANK: Let’s talk about you, and about writing, and about your writing, and about other people’s writing! And, of course, your brand new wonderful book.  First, you. Have you always wanted to be a writer? Do you remember how that evolved?

CHARLES: Yes, pretty much as far back as I can remember. I was a shy kid who, like so many other shy kids, found refuge in books. On the ground floor of the apartment building where I grew up was a Rexall drugstore and besides having an actual soda fountain, they had racks of paperback books. Almost every day after school, I treated those racks like my own personal library and I was most likely to spend my allowance on a paperback book as anything else.

I was a big fan of the Hardy Boys mysteries, as well as the Landmark series of books, like The Pirate Lafitte and the Battle of New Orleans, or the one about Sam Houston. I think I probably figured the next best thing to reading a book was writing one. And in Junior High School, in order to skip eighth grade, you had to take a typing class, which opened up a whole new world to me. I started writing my first novel when I was about 12, the same time I mastered touch typing (best, most useful class I ever took). When I moved several years ago, I found those three or four single-spaced pages, the beginning of a roman a clef novel about a sleepaway camp.

HANK: When you were a kid, were their books that were formative? Did you know it then, or did you find out later?

CHARLES: At first, it was books like the ones I mentioned above—and especially a book called The Winning Forward Pass, about a college football player—I actually found a copy of that book and it sits on my bookshelf today. As I got older ,I discovered books on those racks like J.D. Salinger’s Catcher in the Rye, Saul Bellow’s Seize the Day, and Bernard Malamud’s The Assistant. That cinched it for me, those worlds were slightly familiar to me and it somehow gave me license to create a made-up world of my own.

HANK: You teach writing, too, and more about that in a minute. But as you’re writing, do you hear yourself teaching? Or are those two separate things?

CHARLES: Interesting question, and it’s one I’ve never approached in that way. They’re definitely connected, but not consciously. One reason might have to do with the way I teach and that is, I don’t try to get folks to write like me. I want to help them find their voice and style. So, I’m never thinking: How would I write this? I’m thinking: How can I help this student do a better job writing what and how they want to write. I do think I’m a better writer because of teaching and the reason is it makes me consider the craft every time I read one of my students’ submissions.

I have to think about what works and what doesn’t work and why it works or doesn’t work. And when I do, I’m pretty sure I unconsciously think about my own work, how I can make it better. But I can say this for sure: I learn from my students all the time (and as much as it pains me to say it, many of them are probably better writers than I am.)

HANK: Your main character, who continues his adventures in Man on the Run, is Francis Hoyt. You know I absolutely adore him. Where did he come from in your mind? (Lee Child calls Francis Hoyt “a fascinating main character” —what do you think about that?) 

CHARLES: I wish I could answer that, because I have no idea where all my characters come from. Obviously, they’re tucked way back somewhere in my mind, just waiting for the right time to break loose. I can tell you a little about Hoyt’s origins. I’ve always been rather critical of what I think might be a uniquely American problem (at least I consider it a problem): Our obsession with winning, often at any cost. 

Everything becomes a competition and in order to win, and winning is the point. We have to be the best. Think about legendary coach Vince Lombardi’s line: “A tie game is like kissing your sister.” We had a president who promised that with him in office we’d win so much we’d actually get tired of winning. I wanted to explore the possible ramifications of that kind of competitiveness. 

Years ago, I read an essay in The New Yorker about Blane Nordahl, known as the Silver Thief. He was so good he was never caught in the act. In other words, he was the best at what he did. I began researching burglars and I found Allen Golder, who was known as The Dinnertime Bandit, because he only struck at dinnertime when he knew everyone would be downstairs eating and since everyone was home, their valuables would be home, too. So, I had my protagonist—now all I had to do was come up with a plot.

HANK: In one of your many breathtaking endorsements, James Benn praises you, saying you “manage to make the reader care…about a master burglar and pathological narcissist. “How much fun was that to write, and what do you tell your students about making readers care?

CHARLES: For me, it’s great fun to write someone like Francis Hoyt because he’s so different from me (at least I hope he is). It forces me to get into the mind of someone who really is a “pathological narcissist,” to examine what motivates him. 

One of the things writers are often told is to write what you know, but what fun is that? I’d rather write what I don’t know, which means I have to use my imagination.

 Also, one of the comments editors and agents often make (and I rarely hear readers say this) is that the main character isn’t “likable.” I think that’s silly. I don’t read a book simply because I like the character or characters. I don’t really care if readers like someone like Francis Hoyt (although I’m sure some people do.) 

What I do care about is having the character be interesting and compelling enough that you want to spend time with him or her. In that since, readers do care about the character. Now, they might want him or her to get caught, to be brought to justice, but I think if you’ve created an “honest” character, you might even have the reader rooting for him or her to succeed, to thwart being caught. 

So, what I might tell my students is don’t worry about making a character likable, worry about making them interesting enough that you want to spend time with them. And make sure they don’t come off as stereotypes.

 I guarantee you that no one wakes up in the morning and says to themselves, “Hm, what can I do today that’s really evil?” No, instead they’re thinking, “what can I do today that will benefit me?” And thinking selfishly, the character is almost certain to do something that hurts someone else.

 Along the way, of course, part of the pathology is they might get pleasure out of someone else’s pain especially, as with Hoyt, they’re trying negate a very tough childhood. In that case, it’s not enough that he gets what he wants, it’s also necessary that he discomforts someone else. So, for instance, Hoyt does get immense pleasure out of making other people uncomfortable—and going into someone else’s space, uninvited, and taking something from them, is part of the thrill.

HANK: Oops. Before I forget – – tell us a little bit about this new book.

CHARLES: It’s not a novel I ever expected to write. It sprung from an earlier book I’d written, Second Story Man, which tells the story of Francis Hoyt, a master burglar whose claim to fame is that he’s never been caught in the act. But without giving too much away, by the end of that novel Hoyt has managed to avoid consequences for his actions. 

I had no intention of ever visiting Hoyt again, but when I finished my last novel, Canary in the Coal Mine, I started wondering what happens to him after Second Story Man ends. The result

of that wondering is Man on the Run, where the reader (and me) finds that Hoyt, now a fugitive, has moved from the East Coast. He’s also become involved with a former newspaper reporter who now has her own true crime podcast. At the same time, Hoyt is approached by a shady lawyer with a very low-risk opportunity to rob a “mob bank.” By the end of the book, these two things start to intersect.

HANK: Podcasts come into play in this novel. Do you listen to them? Why do you think they are such a phenomenon? Are they a new thing, do you think? Or back to old time radio? Do you think they have an inherent danger?

CHARLES: Thanks to the pandemic I became a true crime podcast devotee. As a former magazine journalist, I realized this is the perfect form for in-depth examinations of crimes and criminals. It didn’t take long for me to branch out from crime podcasts to others on just about any subject. I think they’re popular for many reasons, not the least of which is that it’s an addictive form of story-telling, that isn’t constricted by length or breadth. Plus, you can listen almost anywhere anytime. 

And yes, I do think it’s connected to old-time radio in that it tells a story while demanding of the listener a form of participation. What I mean by this is that podcasts demand attention. It’s not like you can do other things while you’re listening—as you might by playing music or having the news on in the background. It’s also more intimate—it’s just you and the podcast.

 I really can’t see any danger, except for the possibility that these amateur podcast sleuthing can get out of hand. And yet, at the same time, they seem to offer a real service in that they can often bring to attention injustices and possible flaws in our legal system. But the bottom-line is, the good ones provide good story-telling.

HANK: There’s such a cat and mouse element of this book… Tell us more about that, and why that’s so compelling.

CHARLES: Francis Hoyt has relocated to the West Coast where he learns that a podcaster, Dakota Richards, is preparing a series on his career. He tracks her down and instead of terrorizing her into dropping the project, he toys with her to the point where he dangles his possible cooperation. And so, there’s this back and forth between the two of them. Meanwhile, she goes through with her research on Hoyt by interviewing one of them men, retired Connecticut State investigator Charlie Floyd, who’s been after Hoyt for some time. 

And so, there’s this triangulation set up, each of the characters wanting something from the others. I hope it’s compelling because in a way you’re rooting for and against each character. The question becomes, who’s going to come out getting what they want. Or will anyone? 

HANK: Two more questions, okay? You are a revered writing teacher. What were some of your most memorable moments? 

CHARLES: That’s a tough question to answer because I never set out to teach. In fact, it was only because a friend of mine had an over-subscribed class and the Writer’s Voice wanted to add another section and she asked me if I’d do it.

At first, I said no, because I had no formal training in journalism—I was a magazine writer at the time—and so I had no idea what to teach. But she convinced me that since I was doing it, I could just teach what I was experiencing. I learned never to say no to anything and after that first class, as nervous as I was, I found that I liked it. 

What I especially liked was reading and hearing about my students’ lives—I guess I’m kind of a voyeur, a literary Peeping Tom. There are so many highlights, it’s hard to choose one.

But I guess the most famous is getting a call from a good friend who was a magazine editor asking me to take his assistant into one of my classes. I did. Lauren was in her early 20s and the first essay she workshopped in class was about her first day at work, and she called it, “The Devil Wears Prada.” 

For that first year she took class with me, she kept bringing in these essays and I kept telling her she had a book there and she kept saying, no. Finally, she saw the light. That’s why, in the Acknowledgments, she writes something like, “If you don’t like this book, blame Charles Salzberg.” 

But I’ve had so many students that’ve gone on to have their books (or articles and essays) published, like 80-something year-old Richard Willis who kept bringing in stories about growing up on a farm in Iowa during the Depression, which eventually became a fantastic book called Long Gone, or Vivian Conan, who’s been taking classes with me for well over 20 years and finally finished her memoir, Losing the Atmosphere, about suffering from Multiple Personality Disorder. 

When she first came into my class, she hardly spoke to anyone and refused to put her name on her work in an effort to maintain her privacy. She was in a class with Joy Behar (this was before she went on The View and became famous) and at the end of class people would give out copies of their work to be discussed the following week.

Joy picked up a copy, looked at it and said, “who’s is this? There’s no name on it.” Vivian raised her hand and Joy, without missing a beat, said, “Vivian, with all those people inside you, you couldn’t come up with one name?” Turned out, Vivian loved it and when her book came out a couple years ago, Joy gave it a nice blurb. But there are so many more great moments. I should pay them to let me teach the classes.

HANK: And philosophically: What have you learned about the writing world and the reading world? You’ve been so acclaimed, and so lauded and so awarded… Is writing still enjoyable for you, whatever “enjoyable” could mean? 

CHARLES: I’ve never really thought of writing being enjoyable. It’s not like I’ve ever said to myself, “hey, it’s about time for some fun, so I think I’ll sit down and write.” Like Dorothy Parker said, “I hate writing, but I love having written.” 

I don’t hate it. And in fact, when I’m in the middle of it, I actually like it, especially the rewriting part. But I can’t stop even if I wanted to because it defines me. 

If I’m not a writer, who am I? 

That’s why, I think, most writers don’t retire (one of the few who formally retired, was Philip Roth). As to what I’ve learned, it’s that everyone, no matter who it is, has a story to tell. Which doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a story that other people will want to read. 

The other thing I’ve learned is that no matter what happens in terms of progress, writing, telling a story no matter how you choose to tell it, will always be important. I don’t want to get too woo-woo here, but people need stories, either their own or other people’s stories because those stories give meaning and structure to life.

HANK:  Okay, one more. How do you want readers to feel when they finish Man on the Run? 

CHARLES: I’d be pretty grateful that they made it through 300 some odd pages without putting it down in disgust. But also hope they’ve been hooked by my story and that they connect with the characters on some level—they either like them or don’t. But most of all, that they derive some kind of pleasure and perhaps either learn something they didn’t know before, or find themselves thinking about something they haven’t thought about before.

Thanks so much for this opportunity and great questions!

HANK: Oh, see, Reds and Readers? Told you. So let’s talk about–podcasts! Do you listen to them\? Which ones? And why?

And a copy of MAN ON THE RUN to one lucky commenter. (earlier winners this week below!) 

Award-winning author Charles Salzberg,returns with a cat-and-mouse crime novel rife with psychological switchbacks in this “smart, sly and compelling, [novel]... the very definition of intelligent suspense.” –Lee Child. 

“Man on the Run” (April 18th, 2023, Down & Out Books) features ambitious characters drawn into a dangerous pursuit: Francis Hoyt, a fugitive master burglar, and Dakota Richards, a tenacious true crime podcaster gunning for an exclusive. Salzberg expertly weaves a dual perspective chase between the hunter and the hunted in this mob heist thriller. 

 And this week’s winners are: 

LIAR’S DICE: qnofdnile (get it? SO hilarious):

LOVE BETRAYAL MURDER  Melissa T.

THE HALF OF IT   Aprilbluetx

Email me at hank@hankphillippiryan.com with your info! And thank you so much for joining us at Jungle Red.