Some seem to just open a vein (or throw up, pick your metaphor) and let the words and ideas flow onto the page. Write, fast and furious. For them, editing is an act of cutting and shaping.
I'm one of those people who prefer a jig to a waltz, a stride to a stroll, and like to punch a thought home rather than peel it like an onion. When I'm in the groove, I write in quick brush strokes. I lay down the words and sentences that I like to think are like my hands -- short and stubby, capable of getting work done without a lot of fuss and bother.
So when I think I’ve outlined most of a 300-page novel, why am I invariably surprised when I run out of plot, writing page 150. Editing, for me, is adding. Reading the manuscript out loud to myself makes it easier to spot the boring, redundant parts, and helps me find where, in my haste to get to THE END I've shortchanged characterization.
As impatient as I am as a writer, I’m moreso as a reader. I get annoyed with storytellers who double back on themselves, who repeat themselves as I am doing now (saying the same thing twice... make that three times in the same sentence!) I want to whack them upside the head and say, All right already, we get the point.
I remember, years ago I interviewed a bestselling mystery writer for a magazine profile I was writing. I so admired her work, and I was sure that she had some magic formula to share with me for getting it right the first time.
Then she told me about the manuscript she’d finally finished (she'd had to check herself into a hotel for a week to get the final chapters written) and shown to her agent.
As impatient as I am as a writer, I’m moreso as a reader. I get annoyed with storytellers who double back on themselves, who repeat themselves as I am doing now (saying the same thing twice... make that three times in the same sentence!) I want to whack them upside the head and say, All right already, we get the point.
I remember, years ago I interviewed a bestselling mystery writer for a magazine profile I was writing. I so admired her work, and I was sure that she had some magic formula to share with me for getting it right the first time.
Then she told me about the manuscript she’d finally finished (she'd had to check herself into a hotel for a week to get the final chapters written) and shown to her agent.
Back from the agent came this directive: “Ditch the first sixty pages.” The agent felt the first sixty pages were all back story, and made for a sluggish beginning. Ditch them, she advised, and feather in whatever the reader needed to know, when the reader needed to know it.
Great advice. And I often give something similar to that to the aspiring writers whose work I am privileged to read. Especially when they’re writing for mystery readers who are notoriously impatient.
The best advice I can give to aspiring writers is: just get the darned thing written. Then worry about making it sing.
So are you an impatient reader, or do you slog on, reading even when the writer insists on telling you stuff you've already surmised or perhaps don’t need to know yet? And does how much you’ll tolerate differ when you’re listening to versus silently reading a book?
Great advice. And I often give something similar to that to the aspiring writers whose work I am privileged to read. Especially when they’re writing for mystery readers who are notoriously impatient.
The best advice I can give to aspiring writers is: just get the darned thing written. Then worry about making it sing.
So are you an impatient reader, or do you slog on, reading even when the writer insists on telling you stuff you've already surmised or perhaps don’t need to know yet? And does how much you’ll tolerate differ when you’re listening to versus silently reading a book?
I think it depends on the book I’m reading. If I’m frustrated by the story, I tend to be impatient or annoyed or wanting to toss the book across the room. But if I’m really pulled into the story, reading stuff I’ve already figured out is simply validating and if I don’t need to know it yet, that’s okay; I’ll just keep on reading . . . .
ReplyDeleteAnd I confess when the story sags but the writing is solid, I skip ahead.
DeleteHallie, I do the same thing.
DeleteThank Goidness. I feel better now.
DeleteIf the writer does their job, the story should flow and not abruptly stop me from reading. So I can be an impatient reader.
ReplyDeleteIt's why ALL of us need good editors... because sometimes it's hard to see in one's own writing what's perfectly obvious in someone else's.
DeleteI belong to a book club where we only read debut novels (including once a year the debut novel of an established author, usually someone who has just died). There are a few similarities in most of them. Some write furiously until page 275 and then realize they are out of space and time, and try to pull everything together in the last 30 pages, which usually means that some plot lines vanish into the stratosphere and occasionally deus ex machina comes to the unsatisfactory rescue of the main story. Others just end abruptly. Still others desperately need editors to tighten the prose and plot. They are short stories with a lot of unnecessary padding. Frequently, characters do or do not do things that prolong suspense, but are not believable to the character. The biggest failures are always in the development of characters. Once in a great while, the story is the logical development of fully formed characters facing a situation and the book ends when that is resolved or at least understood.
ReplyDeleteall books are hard, but that first one is especially so!
DeleteYour book group reads FIRST NOVELS! Wow.That's brave. Yes, biggest failure ALWAYS is character development. Static cardboard characters abound in my first thankfully UNpublished book.
DeleteI do get a bit annoyed when authors repeat themselves over and over throughout the book. I tend to reflect this in my reviews too.
ReplyDeleteI know that feeling...
DeleteAs a writer, I'm queen of the too-short first draft. For example, right now the book is at 54740 words. I have three more scenes to write before I type The End. My editor would like 70k. But those will come in my revisions, fixing all that shortchanging I did in my rush to get the story on the page. I also like reading the book aloud to catch the cringeworthy bits.
ReplyDeleteAs a reader, I don't tolerate books that are too long and feel like the author just liked the sound of their own voice. Your last question is intriguing, though. I don't listen to enough audiobooks to answer it, but I'm looking forward to hearing what others think.
The tricky part is adding but not Padding. Mine need to be about 90K and I've usually finished first draft at about 75.
DeleteFor sure, Hallie.
DeleteHallie, good questions for readers today. I don't really know if the answer to impatience on the part of a reader has to do with the writer's incompetence, the story's flaws, or just the particular taste of the reader!
ReplyDeleteI recently read a book by a hugely popular author in which the anxt of her protagonist was a main part of the story. I described the book in detail to Irwin who just said "I could NOT read that!" I did read it and I liked it, but her books are all like that. And her books are everywhere!
Yes, I get impatient. Sometimes I begin a book I don't want to finish. I do listen to audiobooks, two or three a week, along with (usually) two other books. Many of the audiobooks I choose are books I have read and loved already. If I get impatient in an audiobook that I am reading for the first time, it is harder to jump around, but occasionally I do. A main factor in an audiobook is the narrator and I am very picky about voices. Some narrators are so good, you just listen.
It IS so much harder to jump around in an audio book. And I hate it when inadvertently I poke the screen and end up somewhere ELSE in the book and then have to figure out how to slip and slide my way back to where I was. And makes it hard to take an advance peek at those revealing final pages.
DeleteJudy, ignorance on my part (and Google no help) what is “anxt”? Thanks. Elisabeth
DeleteAngst, would be my guess.
DeleteThanks, anon. One of those mornings!
DeleteThanks, anon and Judy. Elisabeth
DeleteI am not meant to be Anonymous! You are welcome Judy and Elisabeth.
DeleteI believe I know the book you are referring to Judy, I did not finish it. The angst of the main character was too distracting or perhaps the story had insufficient strength to support it.
The answer is yes, no, maybe. Typical Libra answer. It depends on my mood, current events (foreign and domestic, as in my own domestic situation), and what format I'm reading, as much as the book, story, author, and possibly narrator.
ReplyDeleteFor instance, I just listened to a Kristan Higgins novel, narrated by one of my favorite audiobook readers, Xe Sands. The narrative itself has repetitive parts, but Ms. Sands is such an engaging actress that I forgave them. Not sure I'd have felt the same reading some points being made repeatedly. About a third of them were unnecessary, in my opinion. That was the only flaw of the book, but if I'd been reading it on my own I might have lain it aside.
Sometimes I can tolerate "fluffy" writing, a la beach novels, and sometimes I very much appreciate a well crafted, tight terse narrative.
And I *also* appreciate a tightly written beach novel!
DeleteGreat post, Hallie. For me, it depends. If it's a writer I'm familiar with and admire, I'll slog on. If it's a new to me writer, then the quality of the writing and where I perceive the story is headed will keep me reading.
ReplyDeleteI can think of several writers whose overall work I adored whose novels seemed to get longer and longer and longer... I wondered if the editors at their publishing houses were wary of suggesting edits to anyone so "esteemed"
DeleteThanks for the glimpse into the process! I'm pretty much a reader who slogs on. I like big books and I cannot lie. I love that satisfied feeling when I finish a huge novel that I enjoyed (Sharon Kay Penman for instance). I like descriptions and back stories and understanding the characters. Repetition does bother me sometimes. For instance, an author whose work I really like always had to tell us what music his character was listening to. I get that the character (and maybe the author) had wide-ranging, eclectic musical tastes, but for me having it detailed over and over again got really old. I don't listen to books (yet) so I can't speak to that part of your question.
ReplyDeleteThat music thing sounds more like a tic. Sometimes an author anchors on one particular attribute of a main character to mine... for instance, what shoes they have chosen to wear, or what color their hair is today). As if conveying in shorthand to the reader something about that character's mood.
DeleteI'm a very impatient reader. If I really care about the characters, I do a rapid scan of the book. It's a rare pleasure to grab thirty minutes here or there and sit at the kitchen table, soaking in a book chapter by chapter. Thanks to Deborah Crombie for the pleasure of her latest!
ReplyDeleteI'm in the middle of a first draft. I'm getting impatient, writing short, trying to get the dibs and dabs on the page before I start endless revisions.
Margaret, so jealous! Being "in the middle of first draft" is where I'd love to be.
DeleteHa ha, me too, Margaret! And thanks for the compliment on AKOI!
DeleteHallie, great question! I wonder if there's a correlation between pantsers/outliners and first draft length? I definitely tend to underwrite, then go back and try to enlarge the story--not pad it. As for reading, I'm often quite impatient. As long as the story is flowing, engrossing, I go with the flow. But when there are too many interruptions of that flow, I will either skip to the end or put the book down. One famous mystery writer's books are by now hefty tomes. Every conceivable subplot is expanded into its own novel. I skim the chapters looking for the main characters. I don't listen to many books--too impatient usually--I can read faster.
ReplyDeleteYes, it's the danger of the misplaced flashback. Where the reader might tolerate a paragraph of so of back story, a full fledged flashback can be the jumping off point for some readers.
DeleteFor me it's not so much the general writing, but the characters. If they aren't interesting, witty, someone you want to spend time with then I generally don't continue reading the book.
ReplyDeleteSome authors rely on describing things like the setting or feelings of the protagonist throughout the book and I find that sometimes bogs things down.
This comment reminds me of Elmore Leonard's writing rule: "Leave out the parts people skip"
DeleteHmmm, I am a fast reader. If I can't finish a book in 1 day (or maybe 2), then I get impatient. For example, it took me over a week to finish a recent culinary cozy. I kept wondering why I was not engaged in the story. I liked the setting and family dynamics but the murder investigation dragged on with little progress until the 90% mark. And then everything was resolved super fast. BAH!
ReplyDeleteIf I like the narrator in audiobooks, I am usually so engaged in the story that it ends way too quickly.
The pacing of the investigation - so important! The detours need to be as engrossing as the final resolution.
DeleteGood questions here, Hallie! I do get very impatient and frustrated with a lot of repetition. Not too long ago I was reading a book that had rave reviews. I had to stop reading before the middle even, because of seeing the same words over and over. I don't remember now if someone was explaining what happened to every single person she met, but I had had enough!
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, often I will have a question, why this or why that? Something I need to know for it to make sense for me. Maybe much later those reasons will be explained but I feel I'm dangling in the wind. I'm pretty sure by reading your work out loud you are catching those moments that need a little something more.
Sometimes writers do this... leaving an question dangling, unanswered... and it works. And sometimes it's just annoying.
DeleteI don't like it when (in a cozy or any kind of mystery) the main character makes obvious mistakes. Like meeting a suspect at 2 am in a dark, deserted warehouse in a sketchy part of town! And doesn't tell anyone. Duh!
ReplyDeleteNo, none of us are fond of characters that are "too dumb to live." The uncharged (or forgotten) cell phone drives me batty... or a scene that takes place where conveniently there's no cell phone signal.
DeleteI used to slog on. Not so much any more. I don't have enough time to waste on a poorly written book.
ReplyDeletePlenty of folks would agree with you on that, Liz.
DeleteI am currently reading Francine Prose -- Reading Like a Writer. She quotes from many classic novels to give us the exquisite beauty of writing that exposes character by gesture, detail, and dialog. Not to mention writers' word choices, some of literature's greatest sentences (up to 181 words long!), and how writers handle paragraphing.
ReplyDeleteIn reading these (often lengthy) passages I'm struck how writing has changed to fit our fast-paced world. We have the too many books too little time mentality, and other forms of entertainment such as TV. Plus, as you said, mystery readers want a good page-turning pace.
I love good writing and will linger with it, but even I have my limits, and if I'm impatient with the pace, I will skim through sections. (Though Prose advises "close" reading of the books we love)
Also - loved your sentence "I prefer a jig to a waltz..." Fabulous writing! Such a creative way of describing yourself.
DeleteThanks for the book recommendation, JC. Looking it up.
DeleteRhys: I’m an impatient reader. There are so many good books in the world that if the writer bores me, gives me sloppy writing or repeats herself I usually give up. The best thing ever said to me was that the reader was not conscious of words on a page but was in the time and place
ReplyDeleteI’m probably an impatient reader more often than not. I’ll skip pages and pages of description so that I can get to the dialogue.
ReplyDeleteWhat I don’t like is when I’m reading a debut novel in a mystery series, and all the main characters constantly refer to an event that happened in the past. Or a couple of them are thinking about whatever that incident was. More than once I’ve checked to see if maybe the book is NOT the first in the series, because every character seems to know something important that I don’t know. I feel like I’ve missed something. I make it a point to read ALL series books in order, so I double check to see if I missed some previous books.
I have not yet used audiobooks. One of my sisters loves them, and keeps urging me to give them a try. I’m procrastinating…
DebRo
Impatient reader here. Give me the goods on the first page. Hook me with the germ, the gem, the reason to invest my time in the story and characters, and I'm your reader through the full book.
ReplyDeleteDepends. Hallie, some books are written in a way that makes it worthwhile to be patient as a reader because I can savor every word on the page. Some books cannot hold my attention and if there is a mystery that I want to know the solution to, I would flip to the last chapter.
ReplyDeletePatience is something that I have to work. LOL. And it takes energy to be patient. Sometimes I have no energy,
Diana
Love this post and thoroughly enjoyed reading Come and Find Me. As for me, the first comes in too-short pantser flow once I’ve got the main plot points. But editing is the fun part - eliminating chaff, adding character depth, making new connections. Brick by brick!
ReplyDeleteVERY impatient reader here. I'm not a big one for prosy books that describe a snowflake for five pages (shoot me). And my writing is fast and furious on the first draft and the one revision I do is
ReplyDeletewhen I frost the cupcake, so to speak. I recently met an author who did THIRTY revisions per book. Hub had to catch me when I fainted. LOL.
So many impatient readers! It must be our times, with movies and streaming media where the next scene bleeds into the one still on the screen, and the demands on our eyes, ears, and brains are incessant. In earlier eras authors had the luxury of letting their characters reveal themselves more gracefully and realistically and I still relish reading Galsworthy, Dickens, Austen because of that. Why are we so impatient, as if reading is a chore to be gotten through quickly so we can get on to the next? So many books, so little time!
ReplyDeleteSame here, Susan! I very much enjoy good prose, and don't mind at all taking a nice leisurely stroll through someone's imagination. Writing tight is great for scenes that build suspense, but that is not always why I want to read.
DeleteI so agree, Susan! Books are meant to be savored, not chomped!
DeleteI enjoy mystery novels but get impatient when the author has the main character review the clues and suspects (making lists) every few chapters.
ReplyDeleteYes. Applause. Just get the darned thing written. Fix it later. I told a student this very morning: "It's not a test. It's a process. You've got a great story in the works. All that's stopping you now...is YOU."
ReplyDeleteI really, really struggle with this. I say the same thing to my students; get it down, fix it later. For my own work? IT'S SO HARD. I want to polish each sentence until it shines, which is stupid, because I overwrite, and I know I'll have to edit stuff out. Is it anxiety? Pride? The voice of my mother saying, "I know you can get an A?" I dunno. Maybe I need a therapist who specializes in writers.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Julia, for joining me in Overwriters Anonymous. I write too long and always have to cut. But the tightening if fun. I have tried for my whole career to be a "just get it on the page" writer and somehow it never works for me. I'm a fairly patient reader, too. I love language, and details about characters and settings. But I find repetition very annoying. I'm struggling with a book at the moment that has a good story but so much repetiton. Where was the editor??
ReplyDeleteI'm a very impatient reader. And long sections of backstory? Definitely a turn off. Feather it in!
ReplyDeleteI'm a variable (?) reader. How I enjoy a book depends a lot on its genre. I may whip through it fast because I am enjoying it so much I want to know what happens. I proceed more slowly on other books because I am enjoying the atmosphere and the unfolding of events. I do detest repetition of details. I read a mystery once where two characters gave points of view and discoveries of clues and they were identical. It was like reading a draggy book twice.
ReplyDeleteI don't think I can give a definitive answer. I guess my answer is it depends. I'm a slow reader, so it's best that there's not a superfluous amount of repetition. But, as Debs said, I love language, and I want to know details about the characters and the setting. But, there is a fine line to walk where detail becomes distracting from the story. And, it really does depend on the book. Peter Heller's The Guide was a book I enjoyed that had quite a bit of detail about the place setting, but it was detail I enjoyed because of the setting of the fishing lodge by the river in the Colorado mountains. Knowing that Peter Heller is an avid outdoors man who is so familiar with this scenery, I felt the authenticity of his descriptions.
ReplyDeleteOf course, some books seem to jump right into the action without much set-up, and I do find those really satisfying. Then, I read a book where there the story builds with detail and backstory to the murder and afterwards, and I find many of those equally satisfying. I think it all comes down to what you said, Hallie, good writing. There are some authors' writing that is just captivating.
Oh, and a word about prologues. I love prologues, and most of the ones I read are well done (probably because I'm already familiar with an author or series or book buzz about the book). I have a good friend who abhors prologues, who hasn't met a prologue she couldn't hate. I sometimes torment her with talking about a book and its great prologue.
OK, one more item. Sometimes it's not a matter of solely description but an extension of story that is unnecessary. There is one widely read and loved book I read some years ago, and I swear that book is 200 pages too long. It's like the author got caught up in hearing herself talk and couldn't quit. Although it was a drain on me to finish the book, I did, and I even have a bit of sympathy. I've had reviews, and a recent one, where I couldn't find a stopping point. I kept going on and on and no end in sight. I had to start on a fresh page and bring the bits of the review I thought were essential to that page, and I had the word "read" function read it to me. I finally was able to drop those droning on parts out.
I love good characters which is the main reason why I love reading series. Create a strong, smart protagonist (or two, Debs) and I will want to know everything that happened to them before this story. For me, great characters are most important. I want to know what happens to them next. Without that connection, I may quit a series. Or, if the author does something to a character that is too much for me to accept.
ReplyDeleteFor my husband, give him a great story. Even when reading series, he rarely is more engaged with the characters than the plot. I get it. We are different readers.
I’m a fast reader, impatient as hell. And the older I get, the more particular I become. If I am not grabbed by the end of the chapter or first ten pages, I’m out of there.
ReplyDeleteFortunately I read on Kindle and rarely buy a book unless I’ve sampled it. This is an advantage for writers because back in the day it all depended on how the first line grabbed me.
Thanks to all of you for keeping my TBR pile virtually tottering. Much love
I don’t like overly described details especially when they have no relevance to the story. I don’t need
ReplyDeleteto have a character’s hair length or color mentioned in several places with different shades such as caramel in one chapter and chocolate in another. Other descriptions are equally annoying when they
just seem to be inserted to add to the word count.
I also don’t need to read multiple times why the protagonist has moved to their new home and why
they left their last job or relationship.
I do like adjectives when they add to the atmosphere.
I dislike prologues because they usually give information that I don’t want before I even have an
introduction to the characters or storyline.
I am usually more tolerant of an author I have read before and enjoyed, but they seldom present
these issues. A new author has to prove themselves. A humorous beginning will almost always
keep me reading further.
I am a fast reader and if I really like a book it frequently ends too quickly so I prefer longer books.
Lately I have read a number of stories that seem to either have chapters that are too long or are
only a couple of pages long, neither of which make sense.
The advice on ditching the first (#) of pages is true when writing. These can be like dry skin...who needs it, but sometimes necessary to get the fire lit. When a writer lands a reader into the moment right off the bat, I can easily engage and take my time to enjoy it, yet if truly a good story, I find myself rushing, not with impatience, but with expectation. These answers or choices are all over the place, but all so true!
ReplyDelete