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| Lucy with old friends |
LUCY BURDETTE: We had an interesting conversation in the comment section a couple of weeks ago about friends and decided it it was worth its own blog. Here’s the quote that started it, from Vox: "Humans have a limit on how many deep friendships they’re able to sustain. In the 1990s, evolutionary psychologist Robin Dunbar published a study claiming that humans can cognitively handle up to 150 meaningful social relationships (which includes family and friends) at any point, colloquially known as Dunbar’s Number. Not all 150 contacts are created equally, though. Out of dozens of connections, the number of close friendships people have, Dunbar found, is five. Similarly, a 2020 study found that having three to five close friends is enough to feel fulfilled."
I find that there are only a finite number of people that I can keep up with in a close way. Another article in Psych Central said that most people report having between three and nine close friends.
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| Lucy's oldest and dearest friend |
On the other hand, our Internet lives make all this more complicated. For example, look at Facebook: the number and photos of our “friends” are listed for everyone to see. Does it make you a better or more likable person if you have 3000 friends on Facebook versus 300? Can a person possibly keep up with 3000 friends? We adore our friends on Jungle Red Writers and count on all of you. But are new friends the same as friends we grew up with? The questions are endless.
The subject of friends is very important to the characters in my books, as well. In my upcoming contemporary fiction, THE INGREDIENTS OF HAPPINESS, each chapter begins with a quote that is taken from Cooper Hunziker‘s pop psych book on happiness. Here’s one from chapter twenty-two:
Dr Ed Diener’s research on teenagers found that students with the highest levels of happiness and the fewest signs of depression had strong ties to friends and family and a strong commitment to spending time with them. In other words, meaningful relationships change lives for the better.
From The Happiness Connection by Cooper Hunziker, PhD
Cooper knows how important happiness is, and that friendship is a big part of it, but she’s having difficulty with that in her own life. She’s just moved across the country, which means both her boyfriend and her best friend live in California to her New Haven. And who can she trust in her new job as assistant professor at Yale when everybody is scrambling for the same prestigious position? She envies what appears to be the easy warm friendship between the women in the happiness self-help group she is co-leading.
Hayley, Snow, on the other hand, food critic in the upcoming A CLUE IN THE CRUMBS, is much more settled. She loves her husband, she lives next-door to her best friend, she’s developed a warm friendship with her mother and stepfather. For her, friends are the staff of life, along with bread! A number of pre-publication reviews have mentioned that readers particularly love the friendships between Hayley, Miss Gloria, and the visiting Scottish scone sisters. I love this so much!
Over to you Reds, with lots of possible questions to discuss. Take your pick! What do you think about that 150 number of meaningful contacts we’re capable of? How about close friendships? The effects of Facebook and other social media? Can you think of books you loved because of their depiction of friendship?
Friendship is such an important part of life, but I cannot even imagine trying to keep up with one hundred fifty people in any sort of meaningful way. The idea of three to nine close friendships seems much more realistic to me . . . . Social media may be nice for keeping in touch with family and friends who are far away, but to me it often seems as if it does more harm than good.
ReplyDeleteI thought the quotes in the beginning of “The Ingredients of Happiness” were perfect for the story and I enjoyed the insight in each of them. And I love that Hayley and Miss Gloria have such a close friendship . . . it gives all of their stories a specialness that I always look forward to whenever there is a new book in the series.
thanks so much Joan! Yes 150 seems like a lot, especially if you have a big family to begin with...
DeleteFriends have always been a major part of my life. I have one group I’ve stayed close to since college, another group I’ve hiked with for 40 years and now several good friends in Arizona. Also several in the writing community have become really close friends ( including here). I feel very blessed. But of them all there have only been a few with whom I’ve shared darkest thoughts. I love the fact that you cannot see a real friend for a year or more then when you meet it’s as if you were never apart. (Rhys from France)
ReplyDeleteBonjours Rhys! Yes, I love that part of good friends too!
Deleteit should be Bonjour!
DeleteRhys, I love that about friendships. We are blessed to have good friends. Diana
DeleteWell, the real question on Facebook becomes how many of those friends are people you see vs. who the programming hides from you? It's so frustrating because I'd just like to see everything my friends are posting. And yes, groups I've joined and pages I've liked. I don't need to see suggestion stuff for me (which is then hidden as soon as I do like it).
ReplyDeleteI know I have mentioned the Trixie Belden series multiple times, but one reason I love it is the close friendships the main characters have with each other. I love to picture that I'm part of a circle of friends like that. And I have been at times, but then they wind up moving away.
and I love that you remember those older books because of the friends!
DeleteOh, I loved Trixie Belden! What a lovely memory, Mark. ~ Lynda
DeleteLike Rhys, I have friends from childhood, college, various jobs I’ve held and people I have met by chance (or Fate?). Facebook allows me to stay in touch with people from long ago and far away, but many of those people aren’t in my 3-9 close friends. And the 3-9 (or whatever algorithm and number works for you) people have changed over the years. Life happens and people come and go in our lives, usually without anything dramatic happening. But I definitely have “my people” in whom I confide and whose backs I have (and vice versa).
ReplyDeleteThe books and TV shows I like the most take the time to develop characters and their relationships over the course of the show or series. Look at M*A*S*H and how those characters grew in their relationships. Louise Penny’s Three Pines characters have evolved into a family to the point most of us envy them!
—Pat S.
In reading other people’s posts today, I realize that I didn’t list Deb’s Duncan and Gemma’s friends or Haley Snow’s friends. This is because I only discovered these series when I joined the JRW community last Fall. I am literally still in the last century for Deb’s books and probably on the 3rd book in Lucy’s. With the TBR pile constantly being added to with every “What We’re Reading” post, I’m not making quick progress. - Pat S.
DeleteI have a few friends I still see from my childhood and I reconnected with some on FB that I went to school with but they live all over now, the same with all of my many cousins. I first series that comes to mind that I love for friendships in Lucy Burdette's Key West Food Critic Mysteries. I love all the friends that Haley Snow has acquired from living in Key West and from doing her job and living on a houseboat next to Gloria.
ReplyDeleteawww, thank you! After a rocky start in book 1, Hayley is good at taking care of her friends! it helps that her best friends are also in Key West:)
DeleteGreat post to consider. I think one thing the numbers mentioned above don't go into is the "in-between" circles of friends. I can see being friends peripherally with @150 max, but only distantly. I agree that the close friends you share everything with are few (in my case, I would say three or four, and yes, when you haven't seen each other for a while, you can pick up right where you were when you last saw them.) But I have a number of friends I would call "in between". They are meaningful friends, closer than acquaintances, but not "besties". I would hate to lose touch with them, because they do matter to me. Some of them are relatives I've grown closer and closer to as we've all aged. Others are writer friends and former neighbors.
ReplyDeleteIn between friends make sense to me Elizabeth! I suppose we could spend all day writing to and calling more friends, but then we'd have not much to say:)
DeleteI've just spent the night with my bestie of 46 years and feel so blessed at this one true, long-running friendship. 150 close friends seems impossible, but I do have other circles of friends I very much enjoy, including in the writing community, and several from when I was much younger, including one of my cousins.
ReplyDeletea long friendship is surely a blessing Edith!
DeleteMy "Facebook Friends" list is in the thousands, although as Mark pointed out, FB has stopped showing me the people I really want to see. In real life, I only have a few really close friends, whom I treasure.
ReplyDeleteSomething else... I always prefer to have coffee or lunch out with ONE friend at a time for meaningful catch-up conversation. In a group, I tend to hang back and shut up and just listen. I mean, people-watching is my jam, but that's something different than what most folks consider spending time with friends.
it is different with several people than one--I have a friend who always invites 3 or 4 couples to dinner. Fun always, but dilutes the connection.
DeleteLucy, your story reminded me of something a long time ago. I was at a conference and a new friend invited me to lunch.
DeleteAnother new friend invited me to lunch and I invited that friend to join us. The first person explained to me "Please do not invite other people". She was polite about it and I could see how it looked from her point of view. Now when I meet two or more people, I set aside individual time. Live and learn, right?
Diana
Annette, I get what you mean about Facebook friends.
DeleteAnd there are a few close friends that I want to keep in touch with.
Diana
I do have 2 cherished friends whom I can confide in & we always have each other's backs. But since they both live far away, our encounters are rarely in person. Since moving to Ottawa 10 years ago, I do have regular fun interactions with members of my walking group and my dining club but do very little with them outside of these events.
ReplyDeleteThe crime writer community of online friends, including here at JRW, provide a enjoyable venue to share my love of books & reading. As for Facebook, I keep the number of friends under 100 on purpose. Maybe FB has changed its algorithm, but I only see a subset of their posts. I regularly delete FB friends if I don't enjoy what I am seeing.
Two close friends is a blessing Grace! I don't know what I'd do without the Reds and the rest of the mystery world...
DeleteTwo cherished friends are a blessing, Grace! I agree with you and Lucy that friendships here on JRW are wonderful. I met many wonderful people at the mystery conferences, Just remembered that Grace met my childhood friend at the conference in San Diego the day before lockdown.
DeleteDiana
Having friends is key to a satisfying life, so every time I have moved as an adult I have joined the local political activist group most important to me. By working on the issue together, I have found my kindred souls -- not every member of the group, for sure, but my friends in a new place have often been first met in that group.
ReplyDeleteMy friend-from-university days calls long-time good friends "old sweater friends" -- comfortable, dependable, and always there for us when we need them.
I love that description Amanda!
DeleteLove that description "Sweater friends", Amanda
DeleteDiana
Friends changed as life happened but I never had more than two or three at a time.
ReplyDeleteI have good social relationships but I prefer being in a little group at a time, otherwise , like Annette, I tend to withdraw and listen.
Louise Penny’s Three Pines series is the first that came to mind about friendship. I then thought of Debs’ series and Gemma’s and Duncan’s friends. I would like to be part of those two groups.
Danielle
I think we'd all like to be friends with Gemma and Duncan:)--Luckily we have Debs instead!
DeleteThanks, Danielle! And Lucy, although I doubt I'm as much fun and Duncan and Gemma and company:-) Seriously, though, that community of friends is the thing I like best about writing the series.
DeleteI'm a few pages out of finishing the true story WE SHOULD NOT BE FRIENDS by William Schwable. It is about friendships over time.
ReplyDeleteIt starts with a group of students who have been invited to join the secret society at Yale - Skull & Bones. The 14 start out not knowing each other. It chronicles how they develop friendships that span 40+ years. William Schwable (who went on to become an editor and writer) the only gay man in the S&B group and becomes best friends with Chris Maxey who went on to become a Navy Seal and now runs an ocean environmental middle & high school in Eurthea in the Bahamas.
It is surprisingly very deep about what it means to be a friend and things they should have said, didn't say but over time came to terms with.
I saw that book mentioned online this week--sounds so interesting, thanks!
Deletedidn't Will Schwable write 100 BOOKS TO READ BEFORE YOU DIE ?
DeleteHi Bibliophile, Will Schwable has written
DeleteBooks for Living, The Eng of your Life Book Club, Send (written with David Shipley).
Growing up, I had one really close friend. One. I mean, I had other friends and people I was "friendly" with, but only one I could really count on. We're still friends, 38 years later. I love that we can go weeks, months even, without talking and the minute we're together it's like we just saw each other yesterday. We've commiserated a lot over the last 8 months or so - she was diagnoses with brain cancer last October, then my breast cancer this spring. She turned 50 in March, I turn 50 in September. We're getting together for a long weekend to celebrate.
ReplyDeleteOn the next level are a small circle of people I went to college with. I see them about once every five years (reunion). We fall right back into old habits when we are together and Facebook has kept us close.
Up from that are people, mostly from the crime fiction community, I've gotten to know and treasure.
So I would say I have 2-3 really close friends and maybe a couple dozen I'd like to enjoy a meal with. Lots of them fall into the "friendly when we're together" category. Which isn't bad, it's just another level.
And yes, interacting with 1-2 people at a time is preferable to larger crowds.
Liz, so sorry you and your best friend had something awful to commiserate over:(. Great that you could be there for each other.
DeleteLucy, thanks. But it's okay. We both gave life a great big middle finger at the time and planned for a huge blowout birthday bash at the end of summer. LOL
DeleteHmmm I'm trying to get my thoughts in order. I just woke up from a dream where I was with a friend and former co-worker (whom I haven't seen in several years) and she was opening several presents I had given her. I was nervous about whether or not she would like them. I think it might be time to reconnect with her!
ReplyDeleteOf course, I was born with a built-in best friend, my former womb-mate. I always considered it an advantage, even when I was forging independent friendships. Now I have 3 or 4 very close friends, my women's walking group of about 8, and a large group of friends from church. My college friends are far-flung, but I find it easy to pick up where we left off. One sent me a message last night saying she's going to be in town mid-July!
I just had a friendship issue come up this week that took me right back to all those feelings of, "Why doesn't she like me? What did I do wrong?" It's amazing how strong that old insecurity can be! I felt like I was back in a teen-age angst drama. We've figured it out and will hopefully be back to our former connection now, with maybe a deeper understanding due to the miscommunication.
What timing on your dream! I'm glad you and your friend were able to sort things out--that doesn't always happen.
DeleteI have been blessed with a wonderful family, the best parents, and still, I must admit, there were times when my friends carried me through tough times. The curse of the modern world is that they are so scattered geographically. I want to recommend the recent novel, Fellowship Point, as a study in 2 women's friendship over a lifetime.
ReplyDeletethanks for the recommendation!
DeleteInteresting research, Lucy -- and I love that you made up your character's book as well as her story! There's also a theory about the importance of 'weak ties,' the casual friendships and community relationships we all have, which were severely affected by the pandemic. Women's friendships are key in all my books, as they are in my life, and I love reading about them. My own BFF of 44 years helps with Seattle research for the Spice Shop series, since she still lives there, occasionally tests recipes, and has asked a few questions that have made their way onto my pages!
ReplyDeleteoh yes, the pandemic wreaked havoc on many layers of friendship. You're lucky to have such a best friend!
DeleteLucy, this is a wonderful post. I remember meeting you and Hallie at Bouchercon in Toronto and I thought you looked like good friends.
ReplyDeleteRegarding 150 meaningful contacts, that makes sense. I meet so many people and some have become friends. A wise friend once told me that she made a decision to have three close friends because her time is limited. She married her husband while in graduate school and worked very hard on her PhD dissertation. Now they have children (now teenagers).
My great aunt, who looked like the Queen Mother, had a close childhood friend named Rose. They went to each other's weddings and their children became friends. I met Rose when I was a child at my great aunt's 50th wedding anniversary. Even after my great aunt died, her children went to Rose's 100th birthday celebration 1,000 miles away.
And I have a childhood friend whom I stay in touch with. We communicate the same language (true that we both are Deaf and communicate in sign language - however our communication styles align.). We can go months without communication (busy lives) and pick up where we left off. We are three months apart. She was fortunate that she never went to that horrid school (only good thing was Everyone signed) that I went to.
Unfortunately, I encountered bullies of all stripes at the boarding school and some claim now that we were friends at school. And they never apologized because they did not think they did anything wrong. As a friend told me the other day "hurt people hurt other people".
And I have several close friends from work over the years. I am a friendly person and while I make friends easily, the work is in maintaining friendships. Some friendships last while others do not. These close friends invited me to their family events and before the pandemic, we would get together several times a year.
Fictional friendships:
Love the friendships between Hayley, Miss Gloria, the tarot fellow? amongst others. Love Kate Carlisle's Brooklyn's friendships with her sisters and friendships with people from all walks of life. Thinking of Anne Shirley and her friendship with Diana Barry. Thinking of Lady Georgie and her friendship with Belinda.
Whenever I read a novel, I like to see healthy friendships between women. If they give "mean girls" vibes, then it is a DNF for me.
Again, what a long post!
Diana
Just remembered that I have another friend from childhood though he was older. I was 3 and he was 12. He was not Deaf but knew sign language. I saw him once in a while before the pandemic.
DeleteI love the friendship between Haley Snow and the tarot card reader too! I like that Haley's step-dad, and her father in law, represent those who find tarot cards not believable. But Haley understands it is the connection with him and words of wisdom he gives through the reading that inspires others to understand their situations. I also love Eric and Bill. I want to meet up with them for a key lime pie, on their patio and watch their cute dogs play!!
Deletethanks for the kind words about Hayley and her circle! I'm sure Eric and Bill would be happy to meet you:). Diana, this subject really got you thinking--thanks for sharing your thoughts and memories!
DeleteLucy, thank you. I look forward to reading your Happiness novel. Diana
DeleteSigh, thinking of so many of my dearest friends who have died. Yet I still talk with them while peeling potatoes of filling the sugar bowl — how often do they wash it — or when I make sausage rolls and mince pies. So many memories around food.
ReplyDeleteThe lockdown meant no hugs or even visits from current friends. Three years later I’m still a hermit. But two are coming over Friday afternoon, bringing their new puppy for a play date.
That song, “You can’t make old friends” is going thru my mind.
Hurray for the play date! I was singing "make new friends but keep the old, one is silver and the other is gold"...
DeleteInteresting concept! Friendship requires work and nurturing, especially newer friendships, so maybe 5 is a good number for face to face friends that you see often and are up to date on the minutia of their lives.
ReplyDeleteThere's a second layer of friends, though. The friends who know you to the bottom of your soles. Those friendships were nurtured in the past, but are as fresh as today when they're reactivated. You might not see each other for years, but the friendships pick up immediately without awkwardness.
I think that is true Kait!
DeleteSuch an interesting post, Lucy. I'm thinking of friends in concentric circles, like a target, with that 1-3 in the bull's eye, and then the degrees of friendship radiating outwards. But of course there is interweaving between the rings. I'm also wondering how adult children fit into the friendship matrix--I'd consider my daughter to be one of my best friends, but of course the dynamics are a little bit different.
ReplyDeleteIt's so lovely when adult children become friends Debs!
DeleteYesterday, I mentioned that I'd just finished Nilima Rao's mystery, A Disappearance in Fiji, and was happy to know she's working on the second book in the series. What I particularly enjoyed was the friendship being established between the main character and two other characters--all three from different backgrounds.
ReplyDeleteThat sounds like an appealing read Flora!
DeleteI think the number of close friends can be counted on the fingers of one hand. We all have a lot of acquaintances. Perhaps that's where the 150 count comes in. You can pick right up again with a true blue friend even after years of not seeing her.
ReplyDeleteYes on the close friends. I think I have friends that are situational--when the situation changes, the salience of the friendship may change, even though the person is still there.
DeleteAfter reading this I had to check Facebook to see how many friends I have, and it's a large number, but as people have said, there's a difference between close friends, friends, and acquaintances, and most of my Facebook contacts are acquaintances. Then there're the cat, ducks, pig, and hippo I check in with every day. :)) I'm super fortunate to have long-standing friendships with people I met as a child in 1954. My closest friend and I have gone through *everything* together. However, I also have extremely close friends in my recovery community that I've known for over 40 years, and those I've met who arrived after I did. Truly the best of both worlds.
ReplyDeleteAs for books with appealing close friendships, Louise Penny's and William Kent Krueger's novels stand out, having tight-knit families and communities. Books such as these are a joy to read because I don't enjoy snark or back stabbing, unless it's a part of a plot by non-regular characters. ~ Lynda
Lynda, there definitely are differences between close friends, friends and acquaintances. Love the Louise Penny stories about friendships.
DeleteDiana
Lucy, have you seen Firefly Lane? The actress who plays teenage Kate looks exactly like you in the black and white photo with your dear friend!
ReplyDeleteI have maybe four close friends, but recently reconnected with my cousins and it has been such a wonderful experience.
ReplyDelete