RHYS BOWEN: Like most writers I’ve always been fascinated with words. My degree was in modern languages and I took French, Latin, German and Spanish at school. Since then I’ve dabbled in Welsh and Italian. I love to see how different languages handle construction. I used to love Latin prose when everything was one long, long sentence with the verb at the end. Reading one was like reading a crossword puzzle! I loved teaching German because there is a neat and tidy rule for everything. If you use this preposition then this always follows…
Obviously I had English grammar drilled into me during all those years of schooling. Diagraming sentences, learning tenses… English seemed a language of so few rules, compared with German, for example. And yet I was reading an article recently by Tim Dowling in the Guardian that explains there are strict rules for English descriptions. We all know them but we were never taught them:
Fascinating.
It seems if you are using more than one adjective before a noun they have to be in a particular order and the rule is: opinion, size, age ,shape, color, origin, material, purpose. Who knew?
So you can have the lovely little old round pink French straw sun bonnet.
Try saying this differently and you sound weird.
If we change this order it sounds wrong. So you can’t say, as is quoted in the article: My Greek fat big wedding.
And another unspoken rule is that we deviate from the first rule when we say the big bad wolf.
Why is this? Apparently vowels have to follow a set order I, then A, then O.
So big bad.
Chit chat.
Flip flop.
Sing song.
All of this is in a book called THE ELEMENTS OF ELOQUENCE by Mark Forsyth. I’m going to order it asap. I’m not sure whether I want to thank him or not. Now, as I write, I am obsessed by whether I have all my adjectives in the correct order. The sweet little old lady, not the little old sweet lady (she’s someone who sells candy, I suspect). But it’s certainly fascinating that we all grow up learning this rule that we are never taught, isn’t it?
Can you think of any other rules for English we all know but were never taught?
I had to think about this for a while. So here’s a rule that [maybe] we didn’t know that we knew:
ReplyDeleteWhen using two or more adjectives in a sentence, the opinion adjectives come before the fact adjectives so it’s a nice new car rather than a new nice car . . . .
How do we just know that? Who made that rule? (Rhys)
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DeleteI have no idea who made this rule; however, it is one that we seem to learn through listening and reading rather than by being taught the specific rule. So I hunted around on the Internet and found that Grammarly.com says that if it doesn't sound right, the adjectives are not in the proper order. So, perhaps it's a rule that we simply intuit, thanks to speaking, reading, and writing the language . . . .
DeleteThat was such an amazing example of the correct order for adjectives in English. I never learned that rule T all, but you are right - a different order would sound weird, as would "bad big wolf." There are probably lots of other rules I learned but wasn't taught. Languages are so complex, really. Who knows why those rules evolved? My husband and I are valiantly trying to learn Portuguese, a language with lots of complex rules. Our teacher has assured us that most Portuguese haven't learned many of those rules but use them correctly. I suspect it's always that way with one's home language.
ReplyDeleteIs it harder than Spanish?
DeleteIs it ever! I think it's harder than French, too.
DeleteI remember hearing about that rule a few years ago.
ReplyDeleteWhen I taught English in Japan, all my students knew about countable and uncountable (mass) nouns, another thing nobody taught me. Four pencils vs. some money. Fewer vs. less. I was fascinated that they had to study the rule, while I just knew it.
I find in recent years the fewer/less distinction is dropping out of English. I hear, "I have less books that she does" instead of "fewer." (We won't even get into the "less books than her" change.) Language change in progress, even if it does result in some pet-peevish gnashing of teeth.
Edith, one of the firsts things I asked to my English conversation teacher was when to use much vs many. Even after reading tons of books, I hadn’t catch about the countable.
DeleteDanielle
Edith, I remind myself frequently that language is always changing, but some changes really grate on the ears.
DeleteEdith, the language “rules” was once of the things I found so interesting in your Lauren Rousseau books. Elisabeth
DeleteEdith, the one that drives me mad is the way they now say “sat” instead of of sitting in Britain. He was sat reading the paper. Grrrr( Rhys)
DeleteThank you so much, Elisabeth. Rhys, that would grate! I've never heard that. I wonder if it's related to the "that needs fixed" heard in some American dialects (Midwestern and elsewhere).
DeleteThe misuse of fewer and less grates on me!
DeleteLess/fewer errors drive me nuts! As in grocery express lines: 15 items or less…grrrrh….I always tell people that an easy way to remember is fewer is a number and less is a volume but no one seems to care. 😱
DeleteOk so now this is the ear worm of the day. I need to write a sermon (it's Saturday) and I may have to abstain from adjectives. Actually the automatic shortening might make it very popular!
ReplyDeleteSo interesting about those adjectives.
ReplyDeleteNow I have to look if there is a similar rule in French. I know that the ideal is three adjectives but I have a lot of difficulty restricting myself to this and I don’t know about an established order.
Danielle
Now I’m going to spend the rest of the day saying descriptive French phrases to myself to see which sound right! ( Rhys)
DeleteEdith, "less books than her" really grates on me! I hear that a lot - it's up there with "me and my friend."
ReplyDeleteAnd Rhys, I remember learning how to diagram sentences in middle school - kids don't learn that anymore in school.
And (can I start a sentence with and?) where does one put the period or question mark when using quotes? "Blah, blah, blah?" or "Blah, blah, blah"?
Inside the quotation marks! And I do sometimes begin a sentence with And even though it’s not correct ( Rhys)
DeleteDiagramming sentences is an ineffective method of teaching grammar. Other more effective methods are certainly taught in the best public schools today.
DeleteI would imagine if diagramming is ineffective then that's why it isn't taught anymore. But, several friends (in the baby boomer age group now 70+) attended various Ivy League colleges and they felt diagramming did help them understand sentence construction and parts of speech and how to use them. But, I agree today there are probably better ways, and as a former teacher (a long, long time ago) I am certainly out of the loop on the newest methods. Thanks for the update.
DeleteLanguage is fascinating -- how we speak it and why. Thanks for the book title, Rhys, which I'm off to find.
ReplyDeleteLove, love, love this post, Rhys! I always thought if I ever pursued an advanced degree it would be in Linguistics. I’m going to order the book you mentioned, too.~Emily Dame
ReplyDeleteEmily, as a person with a (long dusty) PhD in linguistics, I can attest to its fascinatingness!
DeleteI see your linguistics and raise with Spanish Linguistics.. was fascinating indeed.
DeleteRhys, thanks for the book title, as I've been trying to figure out where this information had originated. I'd read it someplace, maybe in a Facebook meme, and wondered where I could find out more.
ReplyDeleteRich language heard in early life means a larger and more complex vocabulary. It helps to have had eloquent speech around you in order to innately know these rules, among other things. I've read that children who are spoken to constantly, including being read to, have a much higher vocabulary, and a much better chance at success in life, which makes perfect sense. Being able to express ourselves well has to come from childhood, I think. The long list of descriptors reminds me of some of the best children's books.
My grandparents generation had a much richer vocabulary than we do! Long sentences, fewer abbreviations. Why? Because they read every evening and had lots of time! ( Rhys)
DeleteAnd as a consequence, so did you have a richer vocabulary, Rhys.
DeleteI will be looking for this book, Rhys! Love delving into language structure and usage. I will often read something I've written and reorder the words because it doesn't sound right. And reading something jarring in a book is often because it doesn't sound right and I would've put the words in a different order. Can't think of any unspoken rules, though. Too early, too little caffeine. (Flora)
ReplyDeleteI have heard this rule before--possibly here on Jungle Red--and I like it, but I sometimes have trouble organizing the adjectives when describing a car. For instance, I used to drive a black 45th Anniversary Edition Mustang GT. Which sounds much better to me than saying a 45th Anniversary Edition (age) black (color) Mustang GT. Even without the car collector's designation, I don't think I would say a 2009 black Mustang GT. I'd prefer a black 2009 Mustang GT. (Well, seriously, who wouldn't?). Although, if I still had the car, I'd surely say a 14-year-old black Mustang GT, so maybe the model year/collector's designation isn't about age, but about origin or purpose?
ReplyDeleteLove this post about languages, Rhys! I have been meaning to ask you if you learned the British Sign Language when you were in the Girl Guides? I remember that when I was in the Girl Scouts that we all learned the fingerspelling in American Sign Language. And some signs too.
ReplyDeleteNow I want to read this book that you mentioned.
Language rules? My first thought is that I feel like I automatically know the rules. I think that perhaps what we learn as a child now comes naturally to us? I always loved to learn the meanings behind the words. I remember that Sesame Street programmes for children on Public TV often had language lessons.
The other day on Social Media, there was a Reel about the differences between E.G. and I.E. as in for example. These abbreviations are based on the Latin words.
And I noticed that spoken language sometimes is different from written language. And the phonetics are different from the written words. I learned from my voice teacher that a word like "bake" is pronounced " b a e k".
Diana
Diana, e.g. means “for example” while i.e. stands for “that is”. Similar but not exactly the same thing.
DeleteI did learn finger spelling once and got in trouble for using it yo a friend during class!
DeleteThis does make sense! A compliment can quickly become an insult if the adjectives are not in the "correct" order :)
ReplyDeleteI, too, was brought up with teachers who were very strict about learning correct grammar including diagramming sentences which I actually started enjoying once I knew what I was doing. My strictest teacher was my brother who would correct me if I said something that was not grammatically correct. It’s so ingrained in me that even today I will correct myself in mid-sentence and silently do so
ReplyDeletewith others. One of the mistakes I hear most frequently is with objects of a preposition especially between you and I and between you and me. I have even heard radio announcers do it.
He/him are often used interchangeably such as it is not he.
I won’t even get into punctuation usage. I think computer usage has created a lot of the changes.
People now use shortcuts instead of full sentences and grammar is irrelevant. They rely on autocorrect for spelling.
Ellen Jovin has written a book-Roving Rebel with a Clause: Tales and Tips from a Roving Grammarian.
She traveled around the country and set up a table in different cities to answer people’s grammar questions.
I was surprised that there were so many people who actually cared about correct usage even though those they interacted with might not know the difference.
That is so funny, Rhys - I never knew the rule about order of description, but you're right: it sounds off if you try to put the adjectives in a different order. An old little lady? Nope. Although as I think about it, we would say a sweet little girl - but in that case, I suspect "little" is actually more of a classification than a description. Hmn... I'm going to be thinking about this for the rest of the day!
ReplyDeleteAs an English major, I love this kind of discussion! Now I’m worried that “irregardless” will become an acceptable word. My high school English teachers drilled it into our heads that that word was only used by people who were not very literate.
ReplyDeleteDebRo
I had NO idea. This is fascinating. I have to order that book! Thanks, Rhys...I think.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely fascinating, Rhys! And so weird that we do it automatically without knowing the rule. I'm off to look for the book! (And will be checking my adjective order when writing this afternoon....)
ReplyDeleteFascinating! I have never heard of this rule. Now I'm going to be watching my sentences to see if I violate it!
ReplyDeleteI'm reminded of a newspaper article I read concerning a bus accident. One of the things that was found in the items scattered all around was "a brown lady's purse." How could they tell? I'm sure they actually meant "a lady's brown purse," Does anyone ever read back what they have written? Preferably out loud.
ReplyDeleteThis is SO interesting! Thanks for posting, Rhys. Who knew? Well, I suppose we all knew, we just didn't know we knew. Now, though, I'm trying to see the logic of that ordering... which explains why it's intuitive rather than specifically taught. I *loved* diagramming sentences. It was satisfying in the same way that geometry was: visual and logical.
ReplyDeleteShe/her for many years was difficult for me to grasp.
ReplyDeleteBut, eventually someone said use she as a noun (it substitutes for the person) and use her when it's possessive.
I am SO late today, but I do love this. And I agree, we don't have to look it up, because we already know it. But the books sounds like so much fun. Didn't Noam Chomsky say we were born knowing how our language works? Something like that. And, so adorably, my sports-addicted music-loving video-game and Magic card and D&D devotee grandson is also now... a linguistics major in college!
ReplyDeleteBasically, all of them, if you're a native speaker.
ReplyDeleteI see it is available on Audible books. The narrator is excellent, and won’t lull you to sleep.
ReplyDeleteShe is a subject and her is an object (usually of a preposition..as in “gave to her”)
ReplyDelete