HANK PHILLIPPI RYAN: Well, Reds and readers, here's a topic that hits close to home. Timely, and timeless at the same time.
Remember when I wrote my not-at-all-autobiographical first novel Prime Time? The question for television reporter Charlotte McNally was “what happens when you’re married to your job in television, and the camera doesn't love you anymore?”
(Yes, as a television reporter for 30 years back then, I can totally say that question had never crossed my mind. I will pause now, while you laugh.)
How we look in a visual medium is impossible to ignore, right? It's the whole point. And, we hope, how people perceive and judge how people look is the thing that needs to evolve. (And I think it's getting better, she says, crossing fingers.)
We'll talk about another element of this on the Reds and Readers Facebook page today– remember, you have to join us to join the fun! And I will give away a copy of one of the Charlotte McNally books to one lucky commenter.
But how about other sleuths in mystery world? Do you like them to stay exactly the same, like, say, Sherlock Holmes and Miss Marple? Or do you like them to grow and change, like real life?
The wonderful Dick Belsky knows both worlds--mystery and media. And he has some fascinating and provocative questions for you!
FOREVER YOUNG - OR NOT?
AGING A SERIES CHARACTER--OR NOT?
“Norah O’Donnell is 50 years old. Samantha Guthrie 51. Hoda Kotb 58. Robin Roberts 62 and Gayle King 68. The point I’m trying to make here is that TV newscasters - specifically women TV newscasters - don’t have to be cute, perky, young talking heads to succeed in the media world where I work.”
Those are the opening words for my series character TV journalist Clare Carlson in my new thriller BROADCAST BLUES.
Clare is thinking a lot about age in BROADCAST BLUES (the 6th book in the series) because she’s about to turn 50 - and worried about the impact this will have on her professional career and her romantic future and the rest of her life.
As an author, I’m worried about how to deal with Clare’s aging too - because there is no sure way, no right-or-wrong way, to handle the question of a character getting older as a series progresses.
Some authors have them never really age, a few allow them to get older at a normal rate - and others have decided on their own mathematical formula for adding years to their series character from book to book.
I remember interviewing Sara Paretsky about this with her iconic female detective V.I. Warshawski not long ago. She explained V.I.’s aging process this way.
“We were both 30 when she started. And she’s about 50 now, while I’m 70. She’s going to be there for a while. Maybe if I live to be 90 and I’m still writing, 60 might sound good for her - and I’ll move it up a decade.”
Paretsky said she originally intended for Warshawski to age in real time, but changed her mind as the books went on because “I want her still to be an efficient physical presence.”
Janet Evanovich on the other hand, keeps Stephanie Plum in her early 30s in her books, while Sue Grafton aged Kinsey Millhone very, very slowly - she was always in her 30s, although moving toward 40 - in the alphabet series books which remained set in the 80s.
Michael Connelly has notably aged Harry Bosch in the 30 years since his inception - retiring him from the LAPD, giving him all sorts of physical ailments and introducing a new, younger character in Rene Ballard to work him in the series.
Spenser has aged too since he started during the ‘70s in the books by Robert B. Parker (and later Ace Atkins and Mike Lupica after Parker’s death). But, like with Kinsey Millhone and V.I. Warshawski, he’s not exactly aging at a normal rate. He’s still a tough guy in the Spenser books even though in the real world he’d be well into his 80s by now.
In BROADCAST BLUES, I have my character Clare Carlson deal with the aging issue the same way she handles a lot of crises in her life - with a combination of denial, humor and determination to throw herself into her work on a big news story to avoid dealing with it at the moment.
Here’s an exchange between Clare and her best friend Janet Wood which I think seems up her mind set pretty well:
“Are you still thinking about that age business?” Janet asked.
“No, not at all, I’m fine with it.”
“Because it can be kind of traumatic knowing you’re going to turn 50 in a few months.”
“Two months, one week and four days.’
“But you’re not obsessing about it or anything.”
“Hardly ever even give it a thought.”
At another point Clare says:
And I’m not sure exactly where I go as an author from here either.
I mean it’s not a critical decision for me right now because this is only the 6th book in the Clare Carlson series.
But if somehow I’m fortunate enough to be able to write many more Clare Carlson books - like Janet Evanovich, Sue Grafton, Sara Paretsky, Michael Connelly and Robert B. Parker did with their characters - I’m going to have to figure out exactly how to age Clare and how quickly it should happen.
What do you think?
Do you like your favorite fictional characters to stay forever young?
Do you enjoy seeing them mature and change over the years?
Or do you prefer something in between: a gradual, almost imperceptible aging of say one year per decade? (Oh, if we could all only age like that, huh?)
And, of course, there are no right or wrong answers to these questions….
HANK: I love this question! In my series books, Charlotte McNally aged one year for every four books. In my Jane Ryland reporter series, she aged a year over five books. And I simply did that by making very little fictional time elapse between the fictional stories--After all, a reporter always has something in the works.
What do you all think? And writers, how do YOU handle that?
R.G. Belsky is an award-winning author of crime fiction and a journalist in New York City. His newest mystery, BROADCAST BLUES, has just been published by Oceanview. It is the sixth in an award-winning series featuring Clare Carlson, the news director for a New York City TV station. This newest book focuses on the murder of Wendy Kyle, a controversial private investigator who snoops into people’s love lives. Belsky has published more than 20 novels—all set in the New York city media world where he has had a long career as a top editor at the New York Post, New York Daily News, Star magazine and NBC News. He also writes thrillers under the name Dana Perry. He is a contributing writer for The Big Thrill magazine and BookTrib.
BROADCAST BLUES
Wendy Kyle took secrets to her grave—now, Clare Carlson is digging them up New York City has no shortage of crime, making for a busy schedule for TV newswoman Clare Carlson. But not all crimes are created equal, and when an explosive planted in a car detonates and kills a woman, Clare knows it'll be a huge story for her. But it's not only about the story—Clare also wants justice for the victim, Wendy Kyle. Wendy had sparked controversy as an NYPD officer, ultimately getting kicked off the force after making sexual harassment allegations and getting into a physical altercation with her boss. Then, she started a private investigations business, catering to women who suspected their husbands of cheating. Undoubtedly, Wendy had angered many people with her work, so the list of her suspected murderers is seemingly endless. Despite the daunting investigation, Clare dives in headfirst. As she digs deeper, she attracts the attention of many rich and powerful people who will stop at nothing to keep her from breaking the truth about the death of Wendy Kyle—and exposing their personal secrets that Wendy took to her grave.
This is interesting, R.G., mostly because I never really thought about it before now. I think I’d vote for the gradual aging in order to allow the character to continue to do the things that attracted me to the series in the first place. And now I’ll have to put “Broadcast Blues” on top of my teetering to-be-read pile to see how it all works out for Clare . . . .
ReplyDeleteI agree. Fortunately, Clare's only approaching 50 so I have time to figure it out!
DeleteI like the characters to slowly age. One year for every 3/4 years or books.
ReplyDeleteOr maybe even slower? Like one year a decade....
DeleteI really don't mind as long as the author is consistent about it. And by that, I mean they aren't jumping the character from one age to another all the time. The authors need to do what works best for them and their series. I'll accept whatever they think works.
ReplyDeleteThat's a good point. I think aging does work for Michael Connelly with Harry Bosch - but might not so well with other characters and authors. Each to his own approach!
DeleteR.G.: I agree that series characters have to age. I want to see character growth & development. Most authors I currently read do not age them in real time. The protagonist's starting age makes a difference. I might not notice change to them if he/she is 35 in the first book, and continues to sleuth into multiple books. But if a protagonist starts at age 65, 70 or 80, then I wonder how long can they continue the series.
ReplyDeleteTo finish, I am glad to learn that veteran female TV broadcasters in the US have been able to remain in their jobs. There was a huge controversy in Canada when CTV News abruptly fired national news anchor Lisa LaFlamme in 2022 at age 58 and after working 35 years in the industry. Some speculated it happened when Lisa stopped dying her hair during the pandemic. True or not, they replaced Lisa with a much younger man as national evening anchor.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/19/lisa-laflamme-going-grey-canada-tv-terminated
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteP.S. What about how to age a precocious young character such as Flavia du Luce? I think she starts off as an 11-year old. A REDS AND READERS commenter posted that a new Flavia book, What Time the Sexton’s Spade Doth Rust, is coming this year. How much has Flavia aged from book #1? Would many of us continue to read stories about Flavia as she approaches her teenage years, and then becomes an adult?
DeleteShe's now either 17 or 18, and in the next book I think she takes her cousin Undine under her wing. She was at least 16 when she went to boarding school in Canada, right?
DeleteI remember the hullaballoo surrounding the firing of a woman anchor here in the US in the 1990s or thereabouts. Hank would remember who it was. She did not go quietly, bless her.
Lisa LaFlamme is gorgeous, grey hair or not, and it seems she was a popular and well-respected presenter. What a stupid reason to fire her.
KAREN: Lisa is an award-winning journalist. Bell Media denies any claims of sexism or ageism in her dismissal. It was bittersweet news when Lisa won Canada's top award as national news broadcaster for her last year of work. Her predecessor, Lloyd Robertson, helmed two national nightly news broadcasts for 41 years.
DeleteFunny enough, I searched & found a 2015 magazine interview with author Bradley. The article ends with the statement: "Bradley won’t let her age past 12 for that reason: “I don’t think Flavia at 17 or 18 would be as likeable,” he says. Maybe so, but unless she actually poisoned someone in a lover’s quarrel, he’s probably wrong."
DeleteBradley must have changed his mind!
That's why I was glad to point out in the beginning of the book how they were still many prominent women TV newscasters on the air who had aged in real life over the years!
DeleteOK, I just checked Alan Bradley's website. Flavia was 12 years when she was shipped off to the boarding school in book 7. According to the book summaries on his web site, Flavia remains 12 years old in book 10, published in 2019. So, she's not a tween yet, let alone a teenager! https://alanbradleyauthor.com/books/
DeleteYes, as you can imagine, I monitored that case (and SO many others) with much distress...
DeleteCongratulations on the new book, RG! I don't track a character's age that much in my reading, unless, as Grace says, she start out as a senior citizen and book time moves fast. Then I worry about her surviving.
ReplyDeleteI write three series, and I usually leave three or four months of book time in between books, so I don't have to worry about my character aging too fast.
Or technology changing too fast, for that matter. Luckily cell phones and texting seem to be lasting...
DeleteIt depends on the character too. Someone like V.I. Warshawski who does a lot of physical action things in the books would have more of a problem as she aged than say someone like Jessica Fletcher.
DeleteI am currently reading a J.D. Robb book and I believe she is up to 58 books in the Eve/Roarke series and only a few years has gone by since the beginning. I prefer it this way as it feels like you are not missing anything that is going on with the characters' lives. It doesn't bother me too much that they don't age and I avoid mirrors. LOL
ReplyDeleteThat works for me too!
DeleteGood point!
DeleteI’ve read a lot of the series mentioned & it really has worked for Connelly’s Bosch series, maybe because he’s brought in a younger character everyone loves by name of “that f——in Flowers.” And Grafton’s Kinsey seems to move agelessly.in her time zone. I love reading them both.
ReplyDeleteWith Kinsey it helped that the series was all set in the '80s, not present day. Which also was great because she didn't have to deal with Iphones or texting or the Internet!
DeleteBut I don’t think of the Kinsey Milhone books as a historical series. I love them, don’t get me wrong. But we are all so inculcated with cell phones and other technology that, if I forget that it’s still the 80s, I wonder why Kinsey doesn’t call for help. — Pat S
DeleteI agree Norma, both worked perfectly, and Connelly (what a genius!) is SO smart about that!
DeleteHi, RG! Congrats on the new book!
ReplyDeleteAs for aging Zoe and Pete in my Zoe Chambers series, I have to go back and figure out how much time has passed between the current book and the first, when I established their ages. I started having each book happen about 3 months apart, so they aged a year every four books. But that didn't always work. Now I have to keep doing math to figure out how long they've been married, too. In 12 (going on 13) books, I think they've aged 3 years. I think. I'm bad at math.
ANNETTE: It's a tough call. I like the slower aging pace over the series for Zoe & Pete. But that also means they got through a heck of a lot of trauma/drama/action within a year!
DeleteAnnette, I finally made a "Series History" file for my Country Store Mysteries (I'm on #13, too). It lists how old Robbie is for each book and which year it's in. She's now in her fifth year (I think). I also include the murder method and a few other notes. It helps!
DeleteOh how I wish I'd kept a series diary from the beginning!
DeleteHa! That works fine, Annette! But keeping track of details like that in a series is tough, isn't it? That's probably a good topic for another post one day from one of us...
DeleteI think there's no one right answer, especially since no one, not even the author, knows how long a series is going to be when it starts. I mean, I'm sure you can plan, but sometimes life makes its own plans. ;-) Hercule Poirot and Miss Marple not aging much worked b/c they were such static characters. The focus was on the plot and maybe a little growth for some of the guest star characters. Although, the last Hercule Poirot, CURTAIN, does tackle aging and I remember finding it very poignant when I read it many years ago.
ReplyDeleteI liked that Sue Grafton did eventually address directly to her readers in her books. I always think of Ed McBain's 87th precinct books too. They went on about 50 years and people did age a little, get married, have children, etc. But not 50 years worth!
I think the best bet is maybe start out aging slowly or being deliberately vague and then deciding a few books in what approach you're going to take.
Yep, no right answer. I agree with that.
DeleteOh I remember reading that with a twinge of sadness, too!
DeleteRG, congrats on the new Clare Carlson book. I'm looking forward to getting my hands on a copy to continue my love of the series.
ReplyDeleteAs for the question of aging, I think it depends on the type of story I'm reading. I think if a series ties itself to real world events then you are kind of beholden to age as realistically as possible.
If you don't tie your series to real world events or pay only passing attention to them, you are a little more free to play with time and age characters far more slowly. The one year in book time equals a decade in real time is a great example.
Craig Johnson's Longmire series uses time in four parts. Each book in the series is set during one of the four seasons. So four books equals 1 year of time for Walt and company.
Thanks for your compliment on the Clare books. Yes, unfortunately, I do use current events at times (Clare is a media journalist) so that can present problems along with the aging issue...
DeleteR.G., congratulations on your latest Clare Carlson. I'm a bit behind in the series and must catch up.
ReplyDeleteMichael Connelly firmly anchored Harry Bosch in time when his origin story was serving as a tunnel rat during the Vietnam War. The author's choice at that point, was to leave the series in the 1980's or age his character. I think it worked for him to age Bosch, but there are many, many fans who wish he hadn't. Lee Child also gave Jack Reacher an origin story and aged him in time as well, although he may have slowed it down recently.
Although I don't mind if my favorite characters age, I also love the way that most series suspend their characters in time and don't age them too quickly. Deborah Crombie's Duncan Kinkaid and Gemma James would be retired at this point and they'd be looking at their grandchildren instead of attending 7-year-old Toby's dance recital. The difference is that neither of Deborah's characters is linked to a particular historical event that can't be moved or time-adjusted. So, we have many years ahead of watching that family grow and change and a lot more cases to solve.
Good point on Harry Bosch. The Vietnam stuff from the beginning of the series really does lock him into a certain age group. As a Vietnam veteran myself, I am well aware of that!
DeleteWhen I was in my 20s and 30s I never thought about aging. Once I hit 50 I thought about it more. (and that was a while ago!) In a series I don’t want dramatic aging of the main character between books. If the series continues past 4 books I think gradual aging is okay. Suzette sciancio64@gmail.com
ReplyDeleteYep, makes sense
DeleteOh, yes, hitting fifty will do that! xxx
DeleteJudy, those are excellent examples, and you make a good point about the time anchor. That is harder for a reader to ignore.
ReplyDeleteOne of the reasons I think the Stephanie Plum series has lost appeal to me is the near lack of character development over thirty books. Your mileage may vary. If I am spending time with characters, though, I want to see them grow and change and yes, age, throughout a long series. It doesn't have to be in real time, of course. For instance, Rhys's Lady Georgie and Molly have both grown up on the page, met the men of their dreams, married, and had children throughout the course of each series. They're not still young and unserious, and I like that very much.
RG, how have I missed Clare's stories? Thanks for this interesting discussion.
It is an issue I've been noticing a lot more in the books I read. Hope you'll check out Clare.
DeleteI prefer gradual aging. Time passes, and when a character has changed in a plot, that character will be different in the new book. But I don't mind picking up a book a year after the previous one in a series and having it refer to the last case, "a few days (or weeks) ago."
ReplyDeleteGradual aging is my preference too
DeleteI have, for the moment, stopped reading Louise Penny's Inspector Gamache books (the "new" narrator, as of book 11, is such a terrible fit for the stories that I returned my last Audible purchase; now I have to read the physical books, and I haven't yet found them in order). But I very much enjoyed the slow progression of time in the first ten books and deepening of those characters. I admire people who continue to learn, grow, and change as they age, and I like following characters who do the same.
ReplyDeleteI think it works better for some authors than it does for others...
DeleteOh, that's so interesting about the narrator! It's such a personal thing!
DeleteCongrats on the new book and very interesting question! The problem in my series is Miss Gloria. I don't want her to age out or lose her oomph. She's turning 85 in the book I'm writing--we have some good role models for lively women in their 80s and that's where Miss G is headed too:)
ReplyDeleteIt is an interesting question. In the Sue Grafton books, even the animals never die!
DeleteMy aunt was in her 80s when she passed away last year from a brain tumor. Up until it made itself known, she was mowing 4 lawns a week, driving to Texas (from northern Ohio), and doing whatever she pleased! So yeah, 80-year-old women: keep up or get out of their way! (Flora)
DeleteFirst of all, Hank you are beautiful on camera and I am sure more so in person. The passage of time is an interesting thing. Who doesn’t think the 90’s were still 20 years ago when you haven’t stopped to do the math?
ReplyDeleteAfter about age 30-35, in my mind, I started to seem younger than my chronological age. I don’t know who that “old lady” in the mirror is.
I can’t imagine Kinsey Milhone older than she was or living in a different decade. Miss Marple was perfect just being her same old lady self. Technology is a big factor, particularly in crime books. Children can also complicate things. I think gradual aging over several books is a nice compromise.
Yep, gradual aging is the compromise I've chosen. So far anyway...
DeleteThis was me Brenda Gaskell
DeleteBrenda, I completely agree with you that the 90s were only two decades ago. And I, also, can’t figure out who is in my mirror! — Pat S
DeleteOh, my goodness--someone on TV last night said "way back in the 90s" and I thought--HUH? And a book in the 1960s is now historical fiction!
DeleteI like them to age gradually. I feel that since we age, they should age too. With age comes more knowledge, experience, and maturity. However, I'm all for having them take a bit longer.
ReplyDeleteI think that's the most popular approach
DeleteI prefer for characters to age slowly over the course of the books. I'm pretty sure that over six books in each of my series, the characters have only aged a year or so.
ReplyDeleteIn my series bible, I have their birthday and, based on when the most recent book takes place, their age. It keeps me on track - mostly, I think. The books usually take place 2-3 months apart, except for Laurel Highlands 7, which is only 2 weeks after book 6.
Aging as slowly an subtly as possible works for me too, Liz
DeleteI'm okay either way. The two characters I enjoyed getting older are Arthur Bryant and John May from The Peculiar Crimes Unit by the late Christopher Fowler. These characters, especially Bryant, became quirkier (although not less brilliant) as they advanced in age. Saddened that Fowler passed away a year ago and there will be no more Bryant and May.
ReplyDeleteReally miss being able to look forward to a new Bryant & May
DeleteAgree. It can work well either way
DeleteHmm, as a constant reader over the years I doubt the thought of aging ever entered into the equation. Now that I’m well over middle age, it feels rather nice to read about characters who are active and still functioning while dealing with the “deal” of aging. When it’s a series, it doesn’t matter all that much though I think gentle - read slow - aging could be a good choice. Except for the part about giving our friend a terminal illness and we watch them suffer. You know who I mean. I don’t think I’ll continue with that series. it’s a personal choice for me, not for all the readers.
ReplyDeleteOn a different track, life doesn’t evolve on one momentous occurrence, case, puzzle a year. The year is full of them so it’s logical to me that several books can go by to make up just one year in the characters life.
R.G. Belsky
DeleteGood points!
DeleteOh, yes, that. great point--and also why there are so many reporters and detectives as main characters!
DeleteI don’t really care whether they age or not. If they have families or pets it becomes a little more problematic since you usually want a child to get older and have more things going on in their lives that will affect how the main characters deal with the different stages along with their primary responsibilities. Joan Hess did this well in the Claire Malloy series with Claire and her daughter.
ReplyDeleteIf a pet plays a major role, what happens to them?
Patricia Cornwell had Kay Scarpetta’s niece go from early teens to an adult within a couple of books
even though other life circumstances didn’t change for Kay. I found it rather annoying. It seemed to me as if the author wasn’t really paying attention and didn’t realize the huge age change in one character’ that didn’t occur with everyone else. One of the reasons I stopped reading the series. I liked the relationship between Kay and her teenage niece. when they became colleagues I wondered how did so many years pass for one person but not another.
The pet thing is interesting. I remember in Spenser when his dog Pearl died. Later, he and Susan got another dog. As I said, Sara Paretsky says she doesn't kill off animals. Again, each author handles it differently.
DeleteOh, true! I never thought about how Kay stays the same...
DeleteIt's a fictional world, Gillian. I think it's okay to suspend belief...
ReplyDeleteYes, if there are children it would be a shame not to find out how they grw up, just go it slowly.
ReplyDeleteYes, children growing up can add an entirely new and different and exciting development to the series. I do that a bit in the Clare series because she has a grown daughter and a young grand daughter that she deals with in the books
DeleteI like characters to age gradually. Louise Penny, a Canadian author and former broadcaster as well, has worked hard at developing her characters in her Inspector Gamache series. Her books are well written and she is known for her intriguing plots and character development. The characters in her books are almost like family to me! I have certainly aged faster than they have! I purchase her books from my favourite independent bookstore store, McNally Robinson Booksellers, in Winnipeg. The next book in the series will come out in October 2024 and is called The Grey Wolf.
ReplyDeleteIf only we could age at a slower rate like these characters!
DeleteR. G. Belsky, I totally agree! 😊
DeleteUnfortunately, Miss Gloria will have to change realms to keep the series believable! I do not read the books where she takes the lead in the book. I am more interested in Hayley and feel her character development has been stunted as she has become Miss Gloria’s caretaker.
DeleteThis requires a lot of thought, and I think it depends on the book. Debs’ books require the kids to age, and so too the parents. They are such a part of the whole series. Miss Gloria is a problem – if she ages too fast – and then has to pop her clogs – not good. Yet, how do you move Haley along in the normal time line of life? I cannot talk about Richard Osman for fear of spoilers, but let me say it is as it should be. Louise Penny’s Three Pines has aged most of the characters well, but I always fear for Ruth and of course Rosa. Ducks don’t live that long! However, Gamache’s real retirement would tidily end her series if she is so inclined – as long as Ruth and Rosie still picnic on the Bella Bella with them.
ReplyDeleteI just finished book 3 in the AJ Pearce series set in London in WW2. We are at 1944, so hopefully the series will continue for 1 more book, but like other war series, at that time it is probably a good reason to wrap up the series as a limited edition.
Definitely depends on the book...and the author. That's why I say there is no right or wrong answer to this question.
ReplyDeleteShalom Reds and readers – I don’t read enough series and even when I watch television series, I don’t think about age a lot. More, I notice changes in technology, like cars or cell phones in the background. I saw the movie Dial M for Murder and was startled a bit to see a phone with a rotary dial take such a prominent place in the plot. However, the older I become, the more and more I think almost obsessively about my own age. I remember when Obama was elected President noting that he was the first sitting President who was younger than I was. I work parttime in a retail office supply store and I notice that the many customers who are older than I am (70) are often confused by things that still seem obvious to me. I try to be patient with everyone but internally I often become annoyed with the older folks (all the time realizing that I will, if I live, be one of the older folks soon enough.
ReplyDeleteIf you don't think about age in a book or TV series, that's probably a good thing!
DeleteR.G., welcome to Jungle Reds! And congratulations on your new Clare novel.
ReplyDeleteThis topic reminded me of articles about Nancy Drew the Teenage Detective. In 90 years of Nancy Drew, she has not aged beyond her teen years?
Agatha Christie's Miss Marple was already elderly so I think perhaps the books would have to stop if she aged in real time?
In novels like the Outlander series or the Deborah Harkness trilogy, there is time travel.
For me, I never thought about characters aging since the books are set in Fiction Land and time is relative.
Speaking of women on television news, I recall a few years after the passage of Americans with Disabilities Act that a tv anchor was fired for losing her hearing (Meniere's disease). She sued and won! A family friend was on the local NBC news station and signing the news. She looked like Ginger Rogers. The new boss decided to change the format to have a tiny picture window of her signing the news. That was years before ADA. Yes, she is Deaf. She was forced to resign. I refused to watch NBC for a long time for that reason. It was one of the last broadcasting stations to have Captions on TV.
Surprising to see that a popular Canadian news anchor was fired because she did not color her hair??? I thought that whoever made that decision was STUPID.
Was there an American tv news lady named Kathleen Sullivan? I remember she had gray highlights in her hair and she did the news for a long time.
Just random thoughts so early in the morning,
Diana
DIANA: Well, Bell Media (CTV news parent company) denies any ageism or sexism was involved in Lisa LaFlamme's firing. FYI, her male predecessor, Lloyd Robertson, was national nightly news anchor until the age of 77. In any case, her abrupt firing was poorly done and many loyal viewers (like me) were outraged.
DeleteWhat about the plagiarism allegations?
DeleteANON: Never heard of allegations. Please provide a credible link with details, please.
DeleteGRACE: I remember that. Diana
DeleteGood to see there are a number of "older" women prominent on the news these days.
ReplyDeleteYes, it's getting a LITTLE better...
DeleteSometimes.
DeleteI'm sitting here with my morning coffee going "hmmmmm." Right now, my favorite character is Armand Gamache. Louise Penny does have her characters age but not too quickly. The main character, Gamache, is aging but ... if he ages too much more, how much longer will he be able to be a police inspector. Along the way, Ms. Penny has changed his role; however, if he gets too old, I fear the series will end. There are other characters in that series, namely Ruth, who is quite elderly, and it will be a sad day when she faces the inevitable. She is a looming character in the book, but not the main character so she will be missed but the series can go on. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I do appreciate and like a bit of aging but not at the "normal" rate for the main character.
ReplyDeleteYes, slowing the aging down seems to work best for most authors - and readers too!
DeleteHey, everyone...thanks for all the great comments! I've tried to respond as best I can. But because I'm not particularly tech-savvy at times, some of my replies are listed as anonymous. But that's me posting my answers. Always such fun visiting the Jungle Red Writers site...
ReplyDeleteThe slow progression works well, time slowing and allowing the heroes to stay much the same. Plot twists sometimes highlight the absence of technology we've come to rely on, not a bad reminder of life without GPS and cell phones. Edith's mention of older characters touches a sensitive spot, and protective concern for those beloved elders, like Lucy's Miss Gloria. They seem immortal, and perhaps in the world of fiction they can remain so. <3
ReplyDeleteYes, it is a fictional world - and I don't have any trouble with a suspension of belief for many characters.
DeleteI really like the characters in a series to age a bit, but slowly. I find it very believable to have the book I’m reading a year later set within the main character’s recent experience of the previous one. Take Duncan and Gemma: they have children who have to grow and age, and their relationship must continue to develop so they have to age and mature.
ReplyDeleteAnd, of course, it depends on the character. Someone like Jack Reacher can probably never really age. But others do it pretty gracefully...even if it's at a slower pace than the rest of us!
DeleteI am also with the slower progression, though with books that have amateur sleuths that and make the encountering of dead bodies comically frequent.
ReplyDeleteLike Jessica in Cabot Cove!
DeleteOh, well, as anaon above said, it's fiction land!
DeleteI enjoy series and am always happy to find a new one! But that means I don't want the characters too age too quickly, even though I want to see characters grow and change over time.
ReplyDeleteAs for older characters like Miss Marple--she comes to us at a time in her life when she knows herself well and isn't afraid to take on a challenge. She knows when to enlist help for the things she can't manage on her own. Mrs. Pollifax is another interesting older character. She muses on her age--and accepts that there are some things she maybe can't do, but learns knew things (karate, for example). They do surprise us and themselves sometimes! (Flora)
I think in general most of us like to see our series characters stay pretty much the same. But that's not always easy to do..
DeleteAnd Sherlock HOlmes...
DeleteFun topic to read about today! The first character that came to mind for me was Stephanie Plum. I will always think of her as young. On the other hand in the cozy books I read, I like the main characters to age a little bit in each book to make them seem real.
ReplyDeleteYes, I can't imagine Stephanie Plum or Kinsey Millhone as older characters. They just work better in their 30s forever...
DeleteAgreed!
DeleteRG -- First, great to see you here at JRW; I've been a big fan of yours since hearing you speak at Malice a few years back and have read and have loved everything you have written. I just got my copy of Broadcast Blues and am looking forward to reading it and hopefully more in the future about Claire Carlson. The question posed is a good one and a real challenge for authors, in part because authors don't always know how long a series will run when they start. The classic example here is Archer Mayor, who had his protagonist Joe Gunther be a Korean War veteran in his first book, and 35 years/books or so later that posed some issues; I think over time Joe simply morphed into a veteran without anything more specific. I think gradual aging is probably appropriate, but there is no need to closely track actual chronological passage of time. And as we know, there are certain characters that will never age or die, often of a canine nature, such as Spike in the Donna Andrews/Meg Langslow series, Tara in the David Rosenfelt/Andy Carpenter series, or Chet in the Spencer Quinn series, just to mention a few.
ReplyDeleteWell, thanks for the praise, Maury. And hope you enjoy Broadcast Blues. On the aging issue, I pretty much agree with everything you just said
DeleteFascinating question, R.G.! I think readers are much more accepting of older protagonists - as in Richard Osman's The Thursday Murder Club, Tess Gerritson's The Spy Coast, and Deanna Rayburn's Killers of a Certain Age. So I think aging them is fine. The sticky part is when technology arrives and what do you do with it? Smart phones hit in the middle of the series but I was aging my characters more slowly so that got tricky and now we have self driving cars...hmm. I can't wait to read Broadcast Blues - I find Clare's dilemma very relatable. LOL.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Jenn. Yes, the tech stuff does present an issue along with the aging of a character. As I said in a comment earlier, Sue Grafton avoided that brilliantly by setting Kinsey in the 80s before smartphones or Internet or texting!
DeleteI do not like static characters in the mysteries that I read. I like all the personal details of the protagonists. I like to see them continue to grow, watch their relationships develop. That actually matters to me more than the mystery. I love watching Duncan and Gemma's relationship changing, their children growing, new characters that become family.
ReplyDeleteAll of my favorite authors do/did that: Deborah Crombie, Margaret Maron, Charles Finch, Julia Spencer Fleming, Alison Montclair to name a few.
On the other hand, some characters do stay pretty much the same from book to book. Like say Jack Reacher. It really depends on the character and the author...both ways can work!
DeleteI keep a calendar of my series, and while I try not to give hard data on what year it is, the first book was set in 1999 (although published in 2001) and we're only up to 2006/2008 (yes, I'm fudging even harder now.) I think lots of readers are willing to go with book time instead of real time - a sleuth may have a case in spring, summer, fall and winter, but the books narrating that year are going to take four years to be published.
ReplyDeleteI think Archer Mayor is another good example of just... eliding the aging of his main character. The first Joe Gunther book was published in 1988 and Joe was a mid-fifties veteran of the Korean War! Today, he's living in what's clearly the present day - computers and cell phones and digital information - and he's still a hale and healthy mid-fifty-year-old. You just don't notice as you read along, because the stories are so good.
I operate on the theory that it's fiction, Julia...so each of us can do it any way you want. That's what so fun about writing novels, huh"
DeleteCongratulations on your new release! I look forward to reading it.
ReplyDeleteI prefer characters who slowly age. My series main character has two kids in high school, so every three books they'll advance one grade. That should do it as long as I keep the series going. And Jenn noted the same older protagonists I was going to mention: Thursday Murder Club, Spy Coast, and my favorite read of 2023, Killers of a Certain Age.
well, Clare is aging pretty slowly! Still in her 40s. Hope you enjoy the new book.
DeleteI think it depends on the author. I’ve read the Harry Bosch series since its inception and Harry and I are about the same age. I can relate to him. I think a lot heroines age a little slower which is also fine. It depends on where the character is at. Brooklyn Wainwright is the heroine of the Bibliophile mysteries by Kate Carlisle. She has aged slowly and recently married. There is a sense of time passing but it takes a few books. Either way works.
ReplyDeleteAs someone pointed out earlier, the Bosch character is kind of locked into a certain age group because the earlier books (and some of the later ones) talk about him serving in Vietnam. With other characters, an author has more freedom to play fast and loose with the number of years that have passed
DeleteYes, I think if we love the stories, however the author decides to handle it can work!
DeleteI personally prefer characters that age along with me, although I read and enjoy books with protagonists who never age. (I think I get jealous of them!)
ReplyDeleteDebRo
Ha! I envy them. Sometimes though the aging of characters you love can be a bit difficult. I find that with the Harry Bosch books now
DeleteWell, here's the think about me and Kinsey. We share a birthdate: May 5, 1950. So I have always known exactly how old Kinsey really is. And I feel kind of sorry for her....stuck forever in the 80s.
ReplyDeleteNot a bad decade to be stuck in!
DeleteThis is such a great topic!! I had to do the math, but my characters have aged six years in twenty books, but I keep trying to slow the time down because of the kids. I do think about the pets, too. I don't mind that they are sort of free-floating in time, but changing technology is a real pain. I hope it doesn't bother readers too much.
ReplyDeleteCongratulations on Broadcast Blues, Dick, and I'm looking forward to aging slowly along with Clare!
Thanks, Deborah. Yes, I find the technology stuff the toughest to deal with when it comes to changes over the years. That's why Sue Grafton was so brilliant keeping Kinsey in that 80s world before so much stuff existed
DeleteAn interesting question, Hank, and one I've been pondering, even though I'm only three books into my series. My Samantha was in her late twenties in book 1, but moved into her thirties with the latest book. As her story arc continues, I want her to mature—at least a little—along the way, but I think she may stay eternally thirty-something.
ReplyDeleteAnd R.G., I love the snippet of dialogue from your book. I'll be reading it soon!
Thanks, Gay! I love writing dialogue more than description. Which is probably why there's so much dialogue in my Clare books...
DeleteI'm here I'm here..just at the eye doctor--back soon! LOVE these answers--SO enlightening!
ReplyDeleteOne of my favorite ficitonal characters is Amelia Peabody from Elizabeth Peter's series. And she aged delightfully through the course of the series and I love the way she did it. If the series is a long one, then for me at least some aging is necessary, although yes, like JD Robb's Eve Dallas, time can pass slowly. Especially if you involve changing life events (marriages, children, etc.) Both Peters' and Robbs' series have the advantage of being either set in the far past or the future, so technology doesn't rear its ugly head. If you're writing contemporary (I write historical myself so not so much an issue), then that becomes a problem to solve in terms of how you progress the character through time.
ReplyDeleteI write in present day so technology can be a big problem for me. I try to avoid too many specifics, but you have to include some. I mean Clare can't be calling her stories in on a pay phone these days!
DeleteIf age has ever been an issue, I would like a very slow progression. But as physical description is important to most storytelling, it would seem to hamper what kind of storyline that would be believable.
ReplyDeleteI actually don't use a lot of physical description. I don't believe I've ever specifically described what Clare looks like. So that part of it isn't so much of a problem for me.
DeleteOne of the first series that comes to mind in regard to this topic is the Maisie Dobbs series. I believe we are introduced to her around age 11 and she continues to age through adulthood. I LOVE the growth and progression she makes as an investigator and a person. It’s really one of the best examples of a successful aging process in a series I have read/seen. She maintains her personality and characteristics through her maturity.
ReplyDeleteThat is interesting. I don't know that I've ever followed a series like that.
DeleteSO agree. I adore Maisie, and Jacqueline Winspear is incredibly brilliant.
DeleteIf it is a series I really love, then I want slow, magical aging. I want those characters to be around a long time having their adventures. I could be wrong but I think Charles Todd's Ian Rutledge books are set roughly a month apart.
ReplyDeleteR.G. Belsky
DeleteI think in most cases I feel the same way
DeleteI think a book set in the historical past (like Maisie Dobbs or Ian Rutledge) have to age along with the concurrent events taht frame the story. For the rest of us we have lots of leeway - the only hard and fast rule for me is that the character (protagonist) has to have learned from past experiences that were in the prior books.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, I sometimes feel that I don't want my Clare Carlson character to learn - or change - too much over the course of the books. it's a delicate balance to walk for me, Hallie
DeleteYep, I'm with you on that!
ReplyDeleteI like it when the characters in a story ages as the series progresses. Time doesn't stand still and neither should the people in the series.
ReplyDeleteThat's one way of doing it. I'm not sure though that's the right way for me.
DeleteJulia talked about her books taking place in all four seasons, and that's how I've decided to work with my series, which is four books long so far with only two published. As so many other writers have described above, I've fit the four books into a year (one per season), so that's how my characters will age. Since both of my detectives have children who are present in the stories (like Duncan and Gemma's kids are), they need to experience the children getting older. Aging is such a prominent part of being alive that I don't see how it can be left out of any series. But slowing it down is a good trick we can use!
ReplyDeleteInteresting. I really do believe there's no right or wrong answer to this. Each author has his or her own method...
DeleteYes, my Charlotte MacNally books take place in four seasons, too--the February ratings book, the May ratings book, the July ratings book and the November! Those are the seasons for a TV reporter!
DeleteI really am drawn to series with excellent character development. Without aging, it's difficult for them to evolve meaningfully. I'm ok with somewhat slower than real life aging, but near stagnation distracts me. This is also partially impacted by the growth of technology over the last thirty years. How people use technology and what is available is tricky when you don't have the main character aging.
ReplyDeleteI forgot to log in to post that... It was me!
DeleteTrue! SO much to juggle!
DeleteWhat a great question. As a reader, I think it feels natural when characters age slowly. I have no problem reading about older characters (I'm almost 72, so the older characters are my demographic.) I read somewhere that Agatha Christie regretted the pace of Poirot's age progression. Miss Marple's age is one of the things I love about her, but it breaks my heart that Joan Hickson won't be able to film any more of the Marple books and short stories. By the way, I'm sending a big "hi" to Dick Belsky. I read a couple of Dana Perry books and loved them. When I began searching for more of those books, I discovered Dana Perry and Dick Belsky (who I knew from B&N's Mystery Forum) were one and the same. I immediately started reading Dick's previous books - I am now a dedicated fan.
ReplyDeleteThanks so much, Becke. Yes, Dana Perry and I are both the same person.
DeleteP.S. I just checked Sara Paretsky's new book out from the library. I've read all her previous ones and didn't know she'd been working on a new one. Not sure how the library got it so far ahead of the official release date.
ReplyDeleteI've read much of her stuff, and also interviewed her several times. One of the most impressive things about her amazing career is the way she (along with Sue Grafton) paved the way for other women authors in the mystery publishing world.
DeleteI got hooked on her books early on because one of her early books focused on a for-profit hospital in the suburbs - the same hospital where I had both of my kids.
DeleteI prefer slow aging. I think that amateur sleuths have an advantage over police main characters. If I remember Ngaio Marsh's series correctly, Inspector Allynne was in his 40's in the first book. There were several before he even met Agatha Troy, and more before they married and had a son. The last book the Inspector was still on the job with an adult son!
ReplyDeleteBy the way, I've read that many authors will never kill an animal, but I am OK with an older pet dying in a series. Not OK with pets being killed or tortured, though. When there are children and animals in a series, it's kind of strange that the kids age and the pets don't.
Interesting points. On animals dying of old age, I recall that Robert B. Parker handled that very well when Jesse Stone's dog died. It was sad, but touching too.
DeleteI get very attached to pets in books. I especially loved Pearl the Wonder Dog in the Spencer books. Last I checked she was 12 in the books (the age I lost my dog a decade ago). What I didn't realize is that Pearl not only lived in the books - she lived with Bob in real life! https://www.facebook.com/RobertBParkerAuthor/photos/a.152648871421177/738429579509767/?type=3
DeleteI know he was pictured with a dog that looked like Pearl in the author photo on some of his books. As I recall, Spenser and Susan have another dog after they lose Pearl. But again, like with the Jesse Stone books, he handles that transition very sensitively and very well. Sure seems like he used his own real life love for a dog into his books. I loved all the Robert B. Parker books. We lost him much too soon...
DeleteOh darling Becke, so great to see you!
DeleteI stop by a lot but don't always comment. I miss your book signings. Seems a lot of authors do signings in the Midwest - I got to meet a lot of favorite authors in Cincinnati, Chicago and the Chicago suburbs (I think I saw you give a talk at the Schaumburg library back in the day). Since I moved to Eugene, I never see my East Coast author friends. It's a long trip, but we do have Powell's here - Portland is a reasonable distance for me to travel for a signing!
DeleteI have read every one of Janet Evanovich’s Stephanie Plum books and it was getting a bit tired with the way that she went back and forth between Ranger and Detective Joe Morelli. Yet, in the last book, each of these men proposed
ReplyDeletemarriage to Stephanie! That was finally some movement on the issue as the books were getting stale as she can’t stay 30ish forever.
I was saddened when Hank let Charlie McNally and Jane Ryland drift off into the sunset as each of them were very entertaining especially as their personal lives evolved. I miss them both
My favorite is Kathy Reich’s Temperance Brennan who is older and more easily relatable for me. This enables me to focus more on the story line although there is some romance / friendship / partnership with a man in a related line of work. Alicia Kullas
I imagine it's tough when a series goes on that long to deal with all these issues. But, if we love the character, we keep reading even if we're not always happy with some of the twists and turns in the character's life.
DeleteI can't imagine that Miss Gloria in Lucy Budette's Key West Mystery Series can age more than a year or two. It's been a series now for 13 +- years. I know the characters are all growing and maturing (Hayley, her hubby, her mom and family members, etc) but they aren't really aging thank goodness. There is a willing suspension of disbelief that we all understand.
DeleteAnd I'm fine with that suspension of belief. It's fiction. I like the fact that an author can write about a character any way he or she wants.
DeleteOh, nooooo..they are not drifting off! Aww....you just made me burst into tears of joy. I have a contract for another Jane Ryland and I adore Charlie,too, and she is not going away! You have inspired me! Come to Reds and Readers on Facebook on Saturday!
DeleteIf I am following a character in books written over many years, I do prefer they age, even if it is not at the normal rate. They should become wiser from their experiences and progress through the different stages of life and relationships. John Sandford's PREY series is a perfect example of this. His main character progresses through the ranks in his job and advances in and changes his career. His personal relationships change with characters aging and moving on with their lives. This gives an author so much flexibility and opportunity with what they can do with the story lines.
ReplyDelete