Anachronism: a thing belonging or appropriate to a period other than that in which it exists, especially a thing that is conspicuously old-fashioned. Often an anachronism is an object misplaced in time.HALLIE EPHRON here, kicking off WHAT WE’RE WRITING WEEK. My work in progress has three generations of women in it, so I try to keep in mind their three different frames of reference.
Their past shapes everything about them--how they dress, their memories, dreams, their word choice, frustrations and passions, and on and on.
For instance, the grandmother, a baby boomer, came of age in the 60s. She was a hippie who hung out in the Haight. Her granddaughter has no clue who Janis Joplin was. Her grandmother, in turn, has no idea who Megan Thee Stallion is. The granddaughter cringes when her grandmother talks about "dialing" the phone or "taping" a TV show.
As I try to keep each of their frames of references sorted, I'm reminded of an article in the New Yorker entitled “Frame of Reference” written by John McPhee. He talks about going into a high school class of nineteen students and asking them to raise their hands if they recognize each name or place as he read it from a list of more than 50 items.
Here's his list - read it and mentally tick off the ones your recognize:
Woody Allen
Muhammad Ali
Joan Baez
James Boswell
David Brower
Richard Burton
Winston Churchill
Truman Capote
Jack Dempsey
Denver
Jackie Gleason
Hallmark cards
“Hamlet”
Mexico
Samuel Johnson
Rupert Murdoch
Paul Newman
Vivien Leigh
Sophia Loren
Barack Obama
Laurence Olivier
Sarah Palin
George Plimpton
Princeton University
Norman Rockwell
Mickey Rooney
Mort Sahl
Barbra Streisand
David Susskind
Elizabeth Taylor
Time Magazine
Toronto
If you're like me, you know them all. Well, almost all. (I had to look up David Brower. Shame on me for not knowing who he was.)
What about those high school students?
Eighteen had heard of Sarah Palin, Obama, Barbra Streisand, and Rolls-Royce. Seventeen Paul Newman. Eleven Elizabeth Taylor.
Only five had heard of Norman Rockwell, Truman Capote, or Joan Baez.
Three had heard of Rupert Murdoch, or Mickey Rooney.
Two had heard of Richard Burton and Laurence Olivier.
Just one for Vivien Leigh.
Not even a single one had heard of Jackie Gleason, David Brower, David Susskind, Jack Dempsey, George Plimpton, Sophia Loren, Mort Sahl, James Boswell, or Samuel Johnson.
I wondered how they’d do with Howdy Doody or Mark Rudd or Sandra Dee? Probably about as well as I do with today's musicians and actors who show up regularly in the New York Times crossword puzzle and in questions on Jeopardy.
Do you notice the characters' frames of reference in the books you're reading? Does it bother you when a character hums a rock 'n' roll tune in the 1950s or channels Abbott and Costello in the current day?
As I try to keep each of their frames of references sorted, I'm reminded of an article in the New Yorker entitled “Frame of Reference” written by John McPhee. He talks about going into a high school class of nineteen students and asking them to raise their hands if they recognize each name or place as he read it from a list of more than 50 items.
Here's his list - read it and mentally tick off the ones your recognize:
Woody Allen
Muhammad Ali
Joan Baez
James Boswell
David Brower
Richard Burton
Winston Churchill
Truman Capote
Jack Dempsey
Denver
Jackie Gleason
Hallmark cards
“Hamlet”
Mexico
Samuel Johnson
Rupert Murdoch
Paul Newman
Vivien Leigh
Sophia Loren
Barack Obama
Laurence Olivier
Sarah Palin
George Plimpton
Princeton University
Norman Rockwell
Mickey Rooney
Mort Sahl
Barbra Streisand
David Susskind
Elizabeth Taylor
Time Magazine
Toronto
If you're like me, you know them all. Well, almost all. (I had to look up David Brower. Shame on me for not knowing who he was.)
What about those high school students?
All nineteen of McPhee's ninth graders had heard of Woody Allen, Muhammad Ali, Time Magazine, Hallmark cards, Denver, Mexico, Princeton University, Winston Churchill, “Hamlet,” and Toronto.
Eighteen had heard of Sarah Palin, Obama, Barbra Streisand, and Rolls-Royce. Seventeen Paul Newman. Eleven Elizabeth Taylor.
Only five had heard of Norman Rockwell, Truman Capote, or Joan Baez.
Three had heard of Rupert Murdoch, or Mickey Rooney.
Two had heard of Richard Burton and Laurence Olivier.
Just one for Vivien Leigh.
Not even a single one had heard of Jackie Gleason, David Brower, David Susskind, Jack Dempsey, George Plimpton, Sophia Loren, Mort Sahl, James Boswell, or Samuel Johnson.
I wondered how they’d do with Howdy Doody or Mark Rudd or Sandra Dee? Probably about as well as I do with today's musicians and actors who show up regularly in the New York Times crossword puzzle and in questions on Jeopardy.
Do you notice the characters' frames of reference in the books you're reading? Does it bother you when a character hums a rock 'n' roll tune in the 1950s or channels Abbott and Costello in the current day?
I'm more apt to notice a character's frame of reference in a book if it seems mixed up or in some way contradictory . . . .
ReplyDeleteThen it becomes A CLUE! (Or maybe a red herring...)
DeleteNo, I don't mind if a character sings or hums an old song. Music transcends generations. But if they are watching a TV show or movie, then the book can become dated, especially if you read the book several years later.
ReplyDeleteYou're so right, Grace - I remember writing a book during the SARS (remember that?) outbreak and thinking it should go in the book and my editor telling me NO... no one will remember it, and she was right.
DeleteFrom Diana: Definitely remember SARS because my voice teacher and her husband planned a honeymoon trip to Southeastern Asia and they had to change their travel destination.
DeleteYes, I do remember SARS since Toronto was at the epicentre of the outbreak in Canada.
DeleteI love frames of reference and I do notice them. So many sticky problems in older novels would now be solved by smart phones! I'm currently rereading all of Rex Stout, whose frames of reference subtly shift from the 1940s on, though Wolfe and Archie Goodwin never age. In the one I am reading now, Wolfe is passing the time reading about Watergate. He knows so much he even knows the names of Haldeman's grandparents. I was reading in the bathtub and laughed aloud in delight.
ReplyDeleteAs someone who is deeply interested in history I do notice when writers get frames of reference wrong. (Selden)
Yes, so annoying, especially when it's about something you lived.
DeleteOne of the things I realize is that people who share your frame of reference will gradually disappear. I once interviewed Joseph L. Mankiewicz late in his life and he was so delighted that a young woman knew so many obscure names from the 1920s and 1930s that he would have talked for hours.
DeleteI used to joke that I could tell if someone was younger than I am by asking if they knew who Topo Gigio was. "Awww, Eddieee." People my age or older knew. Those younger, nope.
ReplyDeleteHeck, Ed Sullivan isn't even on the list!
From Diana: Did you live in Italy, Annette? Took Gigio was a fictional character on Italian television.
DeleteThey left out a lot of people. Charlie Chaplin. Didn’t Ed Sullivan introduce Elvis on his television show?. Mel Brooks. Annette Bancroft. Bernard Bragg, Phyllis Frelich. Linda Bove from Sesame Street. Edward Murrow. Walter Cronkite. Studs Terkel. Jackie Bouvier Kennedy Onassis. John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Princess Grace of Monaco. Princess Diana who was the Princess of Wales and mother of Prince William and Prince Harry. Shakespeare. Jane Austen. Agatha Christie, Dorothy L. Sayers. And many more names!
I LOVED TOPO GIGIO! And we always watched the Ed Sullivan show (was it on Sunday nights?) and enjoyed "a really big 'shoo'."
DeleteFrom Diana: Was Topo Gigio in the early 1960s? I only watched returns of shows like Bewitched when I was a child in the 1970s.
DeleteThe Topo Gigio reference reminds me that when my second youngest sibling was born, our maternal grandfather said she looked like a little mouse, and he always called her “Topo Gigio”! (And of course our family always watched Ed Sullivan!)
DeleteI didn't know James Boswell or David Brower, and a couple of the names I'm a little hazy on - I recognize them but couldn't tell you exactly what they did.
ReplyDeleteAnachronisms do bother me when I read them, but I'm more apt to spot them in language from further back, in the 1880s and 1920s - eras I have set books in and thus studied the language closely. Last week I was reading a novel set in the decade after the Civil War ended. The author used "they" to describe a single character the POV character knew was male. I shook my head. No!
I was delighted to read, "My work in progress" in your intro - that's great news, Hallie.
Yes the whole pronoun thing feels like a no-win.
DeleteFrom Diana: Thank you, Edith for explaining the term “they”. I took it for granted that someone would say “they” when referring to one person of either sex. My bad.
DeleteEdith, I missed the same two people you did. And when I saw that Boswell is famous for writing the biography of Samuel Johnson, I had to look Johnson up!! — Pat S
DeleteI used to have a costume party every Halloween. One year, I decided to scrap the cute little '20's, 40's and 60's dresses and instead wore a pair of Irwin's old khakis, cowboy boots, a gray beard and my cowboy hat pushed up out of shape. I was Gabby Hayes, of course. Only friends my age and older had a clue. When I told my friend (10 years younger) who I was, she was clueless.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of "clueless." No one in 1810 used that term in the way it was used in the 1980's. Sometimes the language used by the Regency babes and beaux in "historical romances" just is wrong. It doesn't ruin the story, but it is recognizable as anachronistic.
I remember Gabby Hayes, Judy.
DeleteWhen Steve and I were dating we were invited to a non-Halloween costume party with a '20's\'30's\'40's theme. (Five women dressed as the Dionne quints) Steve and I both wore then-fashionable khaki safari-type clothes, and he had an Aussie-style expedition hat for his costume as Karamojo Bell, the Great White Hunter. I borrowed a pith helmet from a friend, added a long chiffon scarf around the brim, and went as Fay Wray from the King Kong movie.
I don't think anyone would remember any of those people today! Another year at the same hostess's, I dressed as Charlie Chaplin, complete with little porkpie hat.
DeleteI agree... I often have a passing thought while reading a first person narrative or dialogue set in a historical period, "I don't think they would have said it that way."
DeleteWasn't theree a movie "Clueless"? I'd never heard the term before that.
DeleteFrom Diana: the language was quite different, Judy! I remember saying someone is nice and my dad, the historian, would point out that the word nice used to mean Stupid many years ago. And the word “dumb” in the 19th century meant someone who was “mute”, meaning not able to use their vocal cords or speech?
DeleteAnd yes, there was a movie Clueless, Hallie.
I remember Gabby Hayes! One of my sisters was terrified of him for some reason I don’t think she even knew! I always tried to convince her that he wasn’t going to climb out of the TV and into our living room!
DeleteDebRo
Yes, Hallie. The movie Clueless was a modern day reimagining of EMMA. It was a thoroughly delightful movie with all the California slang and silly '80's tropes front and center. It was full of in-jokes for literature majors and modern teens alike.
DeleteKaren, Fay Wray! What a great idea for a costume. Steve didn't want to go as Tarzan, huh? Those movies gave me nightmares when I was little. There are so many dangers in the jungle.
DeleteDebRo, your little sister's fear of a film personality is so random but not unusual. I was terrified of one of the puppets on Howdy Doody. Of all things, the Private I.
I didn't know Boswell or Brower but I knew the rest. Given that I seem to read a lot of books either set in the past or with modern day characters obsessed with old songs and such, it would be silly of me to get annoyed with characters doing those things.
ReplyDeleteThings would only bother me if I knew they were incredibly wrong. Also, if anyone can't know and love Abbott & Costello, there's just no hope for them.
As for my own writing, today I hope to finish up a review of the Hall Aflame CD 'Amplifire'.
"Who's on first?"... my favorite A&C routie.
Delete"Who's on first" is one of the greatest comedy routines! I still get a laugh hearing it.
DeleteA few years ago the heirs of Abbott & Costello allowed a children’s book to be published called “Who’s on First. The different players were drawn as different animals (a dog on first, a cat as the pitcher, e.g.). I would read the book to the kids as baseball season began and then show them Abbott and Costello doing the routine! It was such a hit! (One boy and his mom even did the routine for the school’s talent show that year!) — Pat S
DeleteLike you, I bombed on David Brower. When I looked him up, I gave myself a head-slap, and said, "Geez. So THAT was his name."
ReplyDeleteI remember fifty years ago when I was working in a junior high school. None of the eighth graders knew the name Nikita Khrushchev
That's pretty shocking. Of course the only detail I remember about was him banging his shoe on the table.
DeleteSame for me on Boswell and Brower. I like Annette's line-in-the-sand generation identifier of Topo Gigio. Or Cantinflas (with the world's weirdest mustache). Or Trigger; or even better, Nelliebelle. Wow, Jerry. They had never heard of Khruschev? That is a serious educational failure.
ReplyDeleteBridgerton has so many anachronisms, you almost expect a gas-powered carriage to belch past. But that's part of the fantasy, isn't it?
Regarding Bridgerton, absolutely! This season, I noticed Pen and Colin dancing to a Taylor Swift song. (Instrumental of course 😉)
DeleteNellie Bellie??
DeleteFrom Diana: Isn’t Bridgerton supposed to be a mash up of something? I did not notice the music, though.
DeleteFrom Diana: Though Bridgerton was accurate since it was in the early 1800s way before the 1880 congress of Milan. Deaf people communicated in Sign Language. There was a French film about Enlightment many years before 1880 where Deaf people communicated in Sign Language. The Congress of Milan voted against Sign Language and we know what happened after that.
DeletePat Brady's cantankerous jeep on THE ROY ROGERS SHOW. It was a 1946 Willys CJ-2A Jeep (not that that matters).
DeleteThanks, Jerry! The character Pat Brady played was the ranch manager. He would drive the Jeep around, and when he needed to stop he'd holler, "WHOA, Nelliebelle!"
DeleteSo that morphed into “Whoa, Nellie”? I’ve never heard of Nelliebelle (I would have guessed someone from Howdy Doody), but my dad used to say “Whoa Nellie”. — Pat S
DeleteThere is often discussion in the Vintage 19th century base ball world of anachronisms between those who push for historical accuracy and those who don’t care and just want to play ball.
ReplyDeleteWhen I worked in a middle school library there were 6th graders working on a decades project. One kid asked, “Did they have cars in. 1974?”
I do take note when a character in a book I am reading does or says something I don’t think they would based on the time frame of the book or even the age of the character, which leads me to wonder what else the author got wrong. It does take me out of the story and decreases my enjoyment of the book. I blame the use of Wikipedia as primary source material.
Brenda, I so agree with you!
Delete"“Did they have cars in. 1974?”" -HA HA HA! However, I do remember when *I* was in high school being shocked to learned that the Korean War was not, in fact, ancient history. It ended after I was born.
DeleteYes! I recently had a conversation with a friend (also born in 1949) about this and for those of us who did learn about it in childhood (trains full of returning troops went through my home town)--we realized that it was somehow never really a topic in "American History".
DeleteI've mentioned before about the books, yep more than one, by a certain author who has characters sitting on bales of hay. In 1780! Another book fairly recently mentioned a character squirting dish soap in the sink to wash dishes, in the 1940s. I knew there wasn't any liquid dish soap then, let alone the kind you could squirt but it had me thinking: what did we use for dish-washing then? I wasn't really aware of much until the mid fifties but I think we used laundry powder. I can sort of remember a TV commercial but no idea which product it was.
ReplyDeleteBut yes, it is things like this that take me right out of the story. Teenagers in 1900 saying and doing things like teenagers might in 2024? Nope. I don't buy it.
Judi, I imagine the dish soap was just a swirl of Sunlight soap bar or the lye soap in the water. My grandmother, even in the '70's always used Lux soap in the bathroom. She would always collect up the soap bits and soak them in water where they became a slimy stuff, and this she used to wash her hair - shampoo. Her hair was always soft and beautiful.
DeleteNo idea, but in the 1950's and '60's my sister and I, who were the family dishwashers, used Cheer detergent to wash dishes. And my mom would use it as bubble bath for us kids, too.
DeleteWe always used Cheer too so I think that is probably what we did. And yes, even in the bath for bubbles!
DeleteAs BUBBLE BATH? That's terrifying.
DeleteIt was, Hallie! Very harsh. No bathtub ring, though.
DeleteI remember liquid Palmolive in the 1950's and Luster Creme Shampoo in the early '50's.
DeleteJudy, even the great Kenneth Roberts has people sitting on bales of hay during the Revolution. They DID compress hay sometimes but it was rare.
DeleteKaren, no bathtub ring, but how much skin was left on the children?! — Pat S
DeleteAnonymous - where did the bales come from? The baling machine wasn't invented until more than a century later.
DeleteMy Mom lived on a farm in the midwest, she says that had liquid dish washing soap in the 1940s.
DeleteJudi, I've tossed plenty of bales of hay and because I'm both a part-time farmer and full-time history nerd, I have books on the history of haying. I know and completely agree with you. I was saying Roberts was wrong with his hay bales, and Roberts wasn't often wrong in those books. However, he was from Kennebunkport and apart from history, his interest was not farming but the sea. (Selden)
DeleteThank you, Selden!
DeleteIn my current WIP, I'm preoccupied with the transition from plaster walls to sheetrock and aluminum electrical wiring. At my recent college reunion, we were directed to the "library steps" for our class photo. We exited what had been our library and walked around the outside of the building to the front steps. Oh no! The NEW library, built after we had graduated. We also discovered that the ramshackle shingled building where we had studied Shakespeare and Chaucer had been torn down. English majors collectively mourned its passing.
ReplyDeleteIt's so scary when familiar landmarks get transformed. I grew up in Beverly Hills and it's like a great gulp of fresh air when you come upon the town hall, looking pretty much as it always did, as does NOTHING surrounding it.
DeleteInteresting subject – and yes Edith, I also am disturbed when the language used in the writing is today’s politically correctness, and not the language of the time – ‘they’ for a person not a group, ‘passing’ for dying at the front in WW1. Grace, as for your comment – I have reread several books of late that do not hold up over time. It is interesting how what was great a few years ago, does not come out that way the 2nd time through. Just reread Lisa Genova’s Every Note Played,(Book Club book) which I really enjoyed the first time through, but we all felt, it just would not cut it now. I have recently read how people balk at Morse and his treatment of women – how we have changed.
ReplyDeleteA few nights ago, when I was listening to the radio when I should have been sleeping, the report was from South Africa. They were commenting on how so very few children in South Africa when asked about the Soweto uprising went hunh, what (1976)? History is no longer taught in any school apparently and if it is not of the here and now, than it just isn’t.
On the other hand, we of the 60’s were pretty sure we were right and that was just that!
As for an anachronism, I wonder if planting geraniums in Canada in September will come to be a thing. It is a week of hospital visits every day, for about 4 hrs each, so by 4 pm I doubt I will be in a frame of mind to plant. Time marches on, but the sun is shining and they are calling for a heat wave – yahoo, it might get up to 25C (77F)!
I remember writing a scene in which a character unearths a trove of old letters... I had to go to our local historical society and look at diaries from the period to write it.
DeleteInteresting Margo. I remember growing up and using dead or died seemed too direct. So other words like passed, kicked the bucket (LOL), of late, were more acceptable.
DeleteMargo, there is a great documentary on the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (it interviewed those who flew the Enola Gay and dropped the bombs, and interviewed several survivors). It is called WHITE LIGHT, BLACK RAIN. At the beginning, they interview teens in the streets in both cities and ask them what happened there in 1945. They have no idea. "An earthquake?"
DeleteI knew 47 of 50, so not bad. I'm sure many of them were because of my parents.
ReplyDeleteLike Joan, reference only bothers me if it's really out of tune with the character.
But how wold we do with today's popular culture references... aaagggh
DeleteYes, good point. Or if a character does something that is irresponsible, poor judgement, or doesn't make sense. I really dislike when the main character goes into a dangerous situation alone, knowing it is foolish, just to make for a dramatic ending.
DeleteHallie, my sister and I were watching videos last night of "Can you name this country song from twenty years ago?" - things like that. I nailed everything from the 80s, 90s, and country early 00's. Pop culture? Not so much.
DeleteAnonymous - agreed to a point. I will admit that Sally Castle does some irresponsible things in ROOT OF ALL EVIL, but it's the first book in the series and she doesn't think things through. She gets wiser in subsequent books. So I'm find with a little irresponsibility at the beginning of a character's arc, but she must learn from her mistakes.
From Diana: Perhaps David Brower was better known to people who either are involved in the Environment movement or grew up in Berkeley, California, United States. David Brower is seen by many as the father of the Environmental Movement. If you went to the Bay Area Book Festival, some of the events are held in the David Brower Building in Berkeley.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, I knew all of the names. Growing up with two parents who are teachers, I was always learning. I remember going through my parents’ vinyl records as a young child and looking at photos of the vinyl covers, I would ask a lot of questions. That was when I learned about a President named John F. Kennedy. I was fascinated by movies, especially Old movies, which were Silent Films. I often knew names of Silent Film stars. I was quite unusual in my age group because I knew names from my grandoarents’ generation though I had NO idea what Frankie Goes Hollywood or any of the music groups were in my age group.
Speaking of Anachonisms, I was reminded of a school film about Colonial America. We were watching a scene with a craftsman and out of the window next to the man, we saw a big blue 1957 car with fins rolling by. We all noticed! It was too funny! Trying to recall if I saw anything in my reading where the anachronism was obvious.
IF I was reading a novel set in Tudor England and a character was using a mobile phone, then I would deinmitely notice that!
Whew! What a long comment!
Diana, your comment reminds me how much pleasure I get from sitting with my grandkids and going through old photo albums.
DeleteI didn't recognize James Boswell, David Bower or Mort Sahl. The rest I did.
ReplyDeleteI don't mind if a book or movie has songs that are not of the time frame because good music is something we all should continue to hear. But, words and items placed in the wrong era is just sloppy work on the writers part. Sometimes it makes a difference and sometimes there is the idea of willing suspension of disbelief. That's why we have Winnie the(r) Pooh, Disney, Peter Rabbit, etc.
The disney characters definitely have staying power.
DeleteWe are over a week behind in watching Jeopardy, but the final question in yesterday's show was about 'she will leave when the wind changes" or something like that - I would have to look it up. The point is that it was obvious to us that it was Mary Poppins. Other Disney characters were guessed including Winnie the Pooh, so not all Disney seems to be timeless.
DeleteYour essay, Hallie, makes me remember two things from my college teaching days. One, I stopped using (my) cultural touch points when the students stopped recognizing them -- which was almost on day one; sheesh, talk about feeling old! Two, when I asked if the students remembered something we had learned a couple of weeks prior, one of them said, Why should we remember that? We can just Google it when we need it. I honestly wasn't sure what the correct response to that was... (I count only 32 items on that list and I had to look up six of them to be sure of them.)
ReplyDeleteAmanda - the student has a point, but how would s/he know what to Google if s/he can't remember what was discussed in your class.
DeleteI think you did very well on the list, considering your relative youth, Amanda! Xo
DeleteWhat bothers me is name anachronisms. Even in everyday speech. When I was a kid, adults would give examples or anecdotes of children doing this or that, and the kids' names were Johnny, Billy, Susie, Joanie etc. Of course.
ReplyDeleteFast forward through the years, and even up to today, I continue to hear people without an ounce of awareness using Johnny, Billy and Susie for their cautionary tales. Listen up, folks.
It happens in books too. Writers giving old people names that belonged to adults in OUR youth (Frank, Fred, Marge, Helen). Face it: John and Bill, Joan and Susan (that's me) ARE the old people.
Sorry, I'm rambling here. Years ago I realised I had to find contemporary names for my characters, and started using my daughter's friends for inspiration. Now, I have to find even newer sources :^0 Multicultural, too :^))
Names definitely go in and out of fashion. But a few names always seem to be somewhat current like Catherine (Kate), Anne, Henry, David, Charles. I think sometimes boys are named after their fathers - so it passes down the generations.
DeleteI worked in a predominately Latino middle school and I noticed over the years how traditional Mexican names like Juan, Jesus, Luis, Jose gave way to (yes!) Brian, Kevin and other Anglo names.
Susan, my great grand nieces' names are Nora Joan, Olivia Grace, Amelia, Oakley (a girl, weirdly). My friends' grandkids names are Clara, Hattie, Otto, Miles, Charles, Colton, Collum, Madeline, and so on. It's been interesting to see the old-fashioned names coming back.
DeleteGreat point! There's a terrific Web site that tracks the most popular names given to babies by year. Mary ruled for decades and now has dropped WAY down. John, on the other hand, preseveres. Go figure.
DeleteI always use the baby names websites for UK names. So interesting how they go in and out of fashion. I know of three little girls at the moment named Clementine, Florence (Flossie), and Winifred (Winnie!) I keep waiting for Deborah to come back in vogue...
DeleteFrom Diana: Seems that names like Pippa and Amelia are popular in the UK, Deborah?
DeleteInteresting--I think it's plausible for a character to love something old (classic rock, old movies or books) but when the anachronism places something newer in a time it didn't exist? That would bother me. I do wonder when reading books set in modern times how well some of them will hold up when they are filled with pop culture references, many of which I don't get.
ReplyDeleteIt's a reason why many of us are cautious with the references we drop.
DeleteFrom Diana: Surprised that Shirley Chisholm was not included on the list by the author. Not was Geraldine Ferraro.
ReplyDeleteInteresting choices for the Frames of Reference list for the New Yorker article, though.
Wonder if Jungle Red Writers authors use “Frame of References “ list for their stories?
Sorry Diana, but women especially those from their time periods were not generally well known. Most of those on the list are from earlier eras. It is not a political statement just reality of the time.
DeleteI know them all but David Brower.
ReplyDeleteI suggest we remove him and insert Nora Ephron. She’s making the NYT crossword regularly this month. Besides, I know her sister!
I like references in my reading. It’s grounding somehow. Occasionally I stop and look one up but so far, except for Shakespeare, I find only the rare anachronism
I am really looking forward to your new book Hallie. I think of the last one every time I look at my carefully organized and rolled dresser drawers!
Rolling away here, too... Love ya, Ann!
DeleteAnn
DeleteThat rolling is the single best inventions since the printing press
DeleteHad to look up David Brower. That's embarrassing.
ReplyDeleteI do pay attention to a character's frame of reference, but out of frame references do not bother me if the context is clear. We do pick up frames from parents and grandparents that become woven into the fabric of our being.
It drives me bonkers when a character goes out of period. People didn’t address each other by first names in Victorian times. I’ve caught so many anachronisms in books I’ve agreed to blurb. It throws me out of the story
ReplyDeleteOh, yes! Me, too. Even in the famously casual United States, that was not done. (Selden)
DeleteRhys you are a scrupulous researcher. Must feel like a fingernail on a chalkboard (ANOTHER ANACHRONISM!) reading stuff that doesn't belong in its timeframe.
DeleteAs a kid growing up in the '50s we called ourselves and our friends by their first names but we were not allowed to call people who were our parents age anything other than Mr., Miss, Mrs. Dr. Even when I became an adult I still referred to our neighbor "parent" friends by their formal title and last name. It just didn't seem right to call Mrs. Fletcher - Hey Betty!
DeleteEven whiteboard are somewhat obsolete - most classrooms have computer screens now. It was a hassle at first to try to figure out all the (IMHO) complicated ins and outs. Personally I missed the white boards.
DeleteFrom Diana: This reminds me, Rhys, When I was in the second grade, I learned that my teacher had a first name. I remember being surprised that my teacher’s first name was Priscilla. And that I had a first and last name.
DeleteOnly my kindergarten teacher was Miss Pat (even though she was married). I knew her as Miss Pat and later learned of her last name when I was older.
Rhys, do you think that is also the fault of the editor?
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely. They have copy editors who should pick up on this.
DeleteAhhh, but what if the editor and copy editor are too young to get the references/time frame?
DeleteI had to look up David Brower too.
ReplyDeleteThe long hot summer of the Watergate hearings, I sewed valances for the 16 windows in my late grandmother's summer cottage living room, on a treadle machine, while listening to the hearings on a black-and-white portable TV. Then I reupholstered a rattan couch and a chair in the same cotton duck material. Measuring, stitching, ironing, listening. I wanted to set a novel in that period. I had notebooks full of NYC weather reports for that summer. Did you know that Granny Smith apples-- originally from South Africa-- were still new and rare and very expensive then? But what constituted "expensive"? I had to find food ads in the microfiched newspapers. I hate microfiche reels. It's so much easier to set a story on another (imaginary) planet.
Granny smiths! I do remember having my first. I wonder do the ones in stores today still ship from South Africa?
DeleteIt doesn't necessarily bother me. In fact, it can lead into character development. Maybe they spent a lot of time with their grandmother who was addicted to I Love Lucy reruns. Or maybe they traded shows, so that's how the grandchild knows I Love Lucy and the grandmother knows The Big Bang Theory. As long as you can explain it, I don't mind.
ReplyDeleteYes, and I refer to it as "exception handling" - anticipating the reader's negative/doubting reaction and acknowledging/handling it.
DeleteI knew every one on the list except for David Brower who I thought I knew because I had confused him with David Broder who was a reporter for the Washington Post and appeared on the PBS program Washington Week.
ReplyDeleteJay Leno used to have a segment on his show called Jaywalking where he would ask people on the street to identify a well known person by either name or picture. Most did not recognize the people he asked them about, including the current president, where Washington DC was and even their own state capitols
If you were talking about someone being gay in the fifties or earlier it had a very different meaning from what it does today.
I work with a lot of people who are much younger than I am and I have started asking them if they know who or what I was going to refer to because I am sure they won’t and I usually have to tell them before I can go into greater detail about the person/place or event that existed before they were born.
The book I just finished has her main characters constantly using an Uber to get around.
How many people in current books still use an alarm clock or watch?
When did speeches become remarks?
Fascinating. I think so much of it depends upon how a kid is raised, meaning how much they were exposed to. My Hoolignas love to bust out the old The Stooges and Abbott and Costello bits as well as the Marx Bros (my personal fave). I had to look up four on the list so I'm feeling pretty good about that as a solid Gen Xer.
ReplyDeleteThere is a report I reconcile three to four times a week. When explaining the report I usually say we get to put our Nancy Drew or Hardy Boys hat on when working the report. The last person I taught, ask me who Nancy Drew was. Sigh.
ReplyDeleteThe only one I missed was David Brower, which makes me very ashamed! Sometimes if I make a 60s or 70s TV reference to my daughter, I'll say "oh you won't know that" to which she replies "of course I do." She watched all the shows on Nickleodeon. And there's a cultural reference for you! Who remembers Nickleodeon?
ReplyDeleteI never mind when a character of today's time references something from a past decade, but I think it's better when that character has been set up to be interested in past icons. I enjoy books set in the 60s because I was a six at the beginning of them and in high school at the end of them. One of the reasons I enjoyed James Ziskins' Ellie Stone books so much is because they were the beginning of the 60s and Ellie was a newspaper reporter, which wasn't a common career for a woman at that time. And, Jim's references to the 60s time period were spot-on. I said in my review of his book Heart of Stone, "Set in the early 1960s, 1961 to be specific, Ziskin doesn’t miss a beat with the trappings of that period."
ReplyDeleteKathy, I agree completely with what you said about the Ellie Stone series. Jim's 1960's settings, references and language are spot on and I rememberthat era very well! I hope he writes more of them!
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ReplyDeleteIn the bookstore the other day, I saw two young women standing by a display of elaborate gifty editions of classic novels. One of them picked up an ornate copy of Les Miserables, and said, with deep incredulity: “Oh my God. They made this into a BOOK, too?"
That is GREAT, Hank! I'm still grinning.
DeleteHere's a question: I had my Swiss detective (age 47) put on a bathrobe/dressing gown over her pajamas on a cold morning before coming into the kitchen to make coffee, and someone in my reading group (an American of about 40) told me that was totally anachronistic because no one wears bathrobes anymore. I know I'm asking a group of people who are perhaps closer to my age than my readers but--do you all agree that no one has robes anymore?
ReplyDeleteI LOVE my bathrobe.
Deletehooded sweatshirt
DeleteI DO! I have a fleece bathrobe for winter and seersucker for summer. And I wear one as I go lightly tripping outside to pick up the newspaper (also an anachronism) from the front walk.
DeleteMy youngest daughter is 36, and she wears a bathrobe.
DeleteNot right now, since it's over 100 in Greece.
I have a daughter who is 35, she does not own or wear a robe. We are in California, in the winter we put on a sweatshirt if it is chilly. We both sleep in cotton tank tops and lounge shorts. No one in the family has a robe or regular pajamas. I think most people have found cheaper snd more comfortable alternatives to regular pajamas.
DeleteI went to my favourite independent bookstore (McNally Robinson Booksellers) in Winnipeg today to order a book for my grandson’s sixth birthday coming up. He lives on the West coast of Canada. The book is ‘’Wave Makers: How to Become an Ocean Hero’’ by Gabrielle Raymond McGeepip. It was recommended by Billie Jean King in a recent Facebook post. I have been a fan since she first entered the tennis circuit and I have admired what she has done for women in sports and women in general. The book had to be ordered because it is published in the USA. I asked three people in different parts of the store who helped me, who I had heard about the book from, if they knew who Billie Jean King is. None of them knew! Two of them were youngish women (20-30 years old). I was quite stunned and told them that she was a champion tennis player but more importantly, a champion of women’s rights and they should find out more about her!
ReplyDeleteBillie Jean King! She was amazing. What I can't remember is the name of the obnoxious male tennis pro she beat!
DeleteBobby Riggs
DeleteNot at all surprising Cheer was used in some households as bubble bath. Some of the early high suds all purpose household detergents were labeled as bubble bath, or preventing bathtub ring (when used with soap and hard water) being among their uses, although I don't know that Cheer was. Usually it was the light duty powders that were so labeled -- and that was even the main point of some advertising for Swerl -- but at least one heavy duty one, Fab, was. The "family" bubble bath powders of the 1960s were modeled on such detergent formulas. They use gentler formulas now.
ReplyDeleteHowever, preceding all that, Lux soap flakes were used as a bath additive to prevent rings (had to use a lot, though, to soften the water) and make bubbles, so there was precedent when Dreft and the like came in.