DEBORAH CROMBIE: I've been thinking a lot this week about Hallie's Monday post on anachronisms and frames of reference. I always look up the most popular UK names for the years my characters were born, for instance, and I try to get music right for their time frames.
But because my series is long running and sort of floats in time, it's full of anachromisms for current readers. Many of these are unavoidably technological. I mentioned in a post last month that we've been watching Grey's Anatomy, which debuted in 2005. The show has aged remarkably well because the scope is so limited: the hospital, Meredith's house, the local bar. Oh, and everyone is in scrubs, which pretty much takes fashion out the equation. You may notice that the doctors are using Blackberries (remember those??) in the early seasons, but other than that the show could be set today.
It's not so easy to limit the world in novels, however, and as the first Gemma and Duncan book was published in 1993, there have been a lot of changes (not necessarily progress!) (Duncan has a phone attached to his car in the first book!)
I made a decision with that very first book that while every book would be contemporary, the characters would not age in real time like Ian Rankin's Rebus, who is forty in the first book and has now had to retire! So while three decades have passed in the "real" world, Duncan and Gemma and their family and friends have only aged about six years. (The ages of the children help me keep track of this.)
The snag in this system comes when you bring things into the story that are fixed in real time. I've tried to avoid it, but have goofed up a few times. A good deal of the plot of A FINER END revolves around the Millenium, for instance--ouch. But while I thought when I was writing NO MARK UPON HER that it would be glaringly obvious that Becca was training for the 2012 Olympics in London, now thankfully that seems a little fuzzier.
Despite my efforts (with a few slip ups) to write around things that so obviously date the books, some are unavoidable. Although I've decided that the pandemic (a very specific fixed point in time) didn't exist in my books, l must from now on refer to the King, not the Queen, etc., etc. It's all very tricky and I envy Rhys having control over how her characters fit into their historical framework!
Readers, do you notice these things? Or do they worry me more than than they bother you?
I think, perhaps, that they worry you a bit more than they bother me as a reader . . . I enjoy being immersed in the telling of the tale and don't find these little things particularly bothersome.
ReplyDeleteI will notice things like that, but as long as the author is consistent, I don't care. I mean, I love the Mrs. Pollifax series, where she is essentially ageless, but she faces contemporary problems in each book, and the books are set over 35 years. As long as you are telling a good story, I'm along for the ride.
ReplyDeleteHeck, I'll even go along with series like Robert Crais's Elvis Cole and Joe Pike. In the early books, both characters were Vietnam War vets. And we explored that in some of the early books. In the current entries, the characters haven't aged from those early books, and the stories are set in the present. Have I noticed? Yes. Is that inconsistent? Yes. Do I ignore that and take what the author says? Yes.
Now, if you had a character who was a Vietnam War vet in one book and a World War I vet in the next, then I would be having serious problems.
Unless you were reading a vampire story, Mark!
DeleteGood one, Julia! And Mark, that's two good examples of series that float successfully in time.
DeleteGreat responses here, what Mark said…. Now I shall wait for Julia’s vampire series …..
Delete(Heather S)
You have a point, Julia. I should never count out vampires.
DeleteI tend to notice things that aren’t there - like cell phones wouldn’t have been when your series started. I’ll be reading a book series (from the beginning as it’s the only way I know how to do it!) and wonder why the protagonist isn’t calling for help. It’s because I am reading a book written before cellphones were a standard part of our lives. And believe me, I do remember life before much of our current technology was in place. I don’t know if I could place a certain song, movie or specific event in English history, though. The pandemic, well, life has become pre-pandemic (i.e., 2020) or after. I think you’re wise to skip that. (And I think most of us are like Mark - we’re along for the ride.) — Pat S
ReplyDeleteI love reading books that take place before the onset of telephones and computers!
DeleteI used to get some reader comments like that for my first book, Pat. I started writing it in 1998, before anyone I knew had a cellphone. They weren't common in Maine for a while because coverage was limited in our mountainous, forested state. Fortunately for my plotlines, there are still loads of places in the Adirondacks where you have low or no signal!
DeleteIt does annoy me when characters only lose their phone signal when it's convenient for the plot:-)
DeleteBut, Deb, my current, updated fancy phone does drop callers now and then, and I run out of charge if I forgot to juice it up before heading off to someplace distant from a charger. (Ditto my stupid smart watch!) If my character is anything like me, it seems entirely believable she'd wind up alone and silent!
DeleteOh, absolutely, Susan, but it needs to happen under ordinary circumstances so it's not just when the character is in jeopardy, don't you think?
DeleteI agree with Mark, Debs. There is no other way for you to tell the story of these characters unless you held all of the stories in the nineties and wrote the series as if that is the time period for all of it. There are a couple of characters who are tied to WWII, and over the course of 30 years, that is a problem. Otherwise, they have to float in time. As a reader, I can suspend my need for consistency. I really love your series.
ReplyDeleteAh, there is Erika. That's a tough one. She has a part to play yet, but I think I will delicately not reference her history during the war. The books that have characters with a strong WWII connection, Kissed a Sad Goodbye and Where Memories Lie (Erika's story) are a wee bit problematic now...
DeleteI may notice and find it amusing, but it doesn't bother me. I hope it doesn't bother readers either, because I've had to be time-blind to a lot of things in my Zoe Chambers series. In real time, it's been ten years and 13 books. But it's only been three years in Zoe and Pete time. I never state what year it is in the book, but will say something like "five years ago" or "when Zoe was a teen."
ReplyDeleteI love "time blind," Annette. What a great way to describe it!
DeleteI agree with others that it doesn't bother me much unless something is truly glaring, especially if I'm not binge-reading a series. That Duncan and Gemma now refer to the King and not the Queen? I'm sure I wouldn't even notice.
ReplyDeleteLike Annette, I'm careful to leave the year out of my books (unless they're set over a hundred years ago) and be vague about the past.
As police officers, they are now "keeping the King's peace." It must take some getting used to.
DeleteI notice glaring anachronisms, but if the story is good enough and I am thoroughly involved I might not notice. I just realized that one thing I do when some sort of time or event is referenced, I try to figure out how old I was or where I was at the time. This is especially true for music, at least specific songs. So if a character were listening to a Beatles song in the late Fifties, I'd have a problem. But listening to an Elvis song in the Nineties is not a problem at all.
ReplyDeleteThe good thing about music is that it stays in the cultural awareness. Contemporary characters can listen to the Beatles--or Miles Davis, or 1940s Big Band, or Taylor Swift.
DeleteI’m with Joan and Mark on this. When I’m immersed in your stories , those little things don’t bother me. I’m so happy to read what happens to my favourite characters.
ReplyDeleteDanielle
Thank you, Danielle!
DeleteI don't find little inconsistencies bothersome.I re-read a fewer of your older books during the pandemic and to me they seemed to be in a fuzzy edged modern time.
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting how quickly technology has changed. In old Law and Order episodes, Briscoe and Green have to find a pay phone to call in to the Lieutenant. When I started at 9-1-1, they had us take some low priority police reports by phone, and we wrote them by hand. No cell phones and the only computer was for the actual 9-1-1 call-taking and dispatch. If the supervisors had to write a letter to a citizen, they did it on a typewriter. We had no information about where a 9-1-1 call came from or even what the number was. All we could do was keep the line open and request a trace. Technology in both my former field and in police work have come a long way since your first book was published! DNA testing and other high tech forensics are relatively new.
Referring to the King takes some retraining. A friend asked me last week if I knew the words to God Save the King. I said that I will probably always think of it as God Save the Queen!
I was just doing the math, Gillian, and I realized if young George of Wales lives into his late eighties (not unexpected in that family) there could be a King for the entire rest of this century.
DeleteI just thought about that when I was looking at the photos from the Trooping the Colour, Julia!
DeleteI agree! Do not worry. Maybe it's because I love history, but I adore the "dating" details. A story told by a good novelist transcends all that.
ReplyDeleteI am currently rereading all my Rex Stout Nero Wolfe books. Between 1933 and 1975, he wrote about four dozen novels/novellas/short stories about Wolfe and Archie Goodwin. Neither man ages at all. In the last novel Archie is still in his early 30s, still the dashing Escamillo, quick with sarcasm and his fists. Stout too always kept the setting current and for me it's fun to date his books this way. The political concerns change with the decades (Nazis, then Commies, etc.), as do the various technologies. I think it is in the early 1960s that Stout starts referring to "self-service" elevators, reminding one that before this all elevators had attendants! By the early 70s the worrying technology is tape recording. Today Archie would have a cell phone in his pocket instead of ducking into corner phone booths, but he and Wolfe would still keep the same hours in the brownstone at West 35th Street. Theodore would still be tending the orchids on the roof and Fritz preparing something complicated in the kitchen.
In sum, unless you're writing a historical novel, I don't think you need to worry about dating details. (Selden)
Selden, I'm ashamed to admit I've never read the Rex Stout books. (I was reading British stuff.) This is a huge hole in my mystery education!
DeleteI think you have to have a fondness for the New York metropolitan area and sort of an old Warner Bros. movie ambience. Wisecracks, sexism, smoking, drinking, and women in furs. I often laugh out loud as I'm listening or reading.
DeleteThere's this thing called "a willing suspension of disbelief." :-) It's what happens to me when I'm engrossed in a story. Unless the anachronisms are glaringly obvious, indicating sloppiness or laziness on the part of the author, I tend not even to notice them. If every particular had to be nailed down to the correct minute, it would be tedious to the extreme. No worries on your part, Deborah, nor indeed, any of the Reds or other fine authors represented on this blog!
ReplyDeleteThank you, Flora! When I listened to all the book on Audible last year, I didn't find the out of date technology as noticeable or disruptive as I'd feared.
DeleteI notice the changes in technology (cell phones, computers, flash drives), though more on TV than in books. Duncan and Gemma's kids are growing up too fast! Keep them young enough to live at home.
ReplyDeleteI know! I keep trying to move the books closer together in order to slow time down. Kit will be sixteen after the book-in-progress!!
DeleteShalom Reds and readers. In your books Deb, I don’t notice the time very much. Growing up, in my home, we watched a lot of television, even though my parents tried to limit our television exposure. We also followed the news as a family. So, I think I do notice when the Kincaid-James family doesn’t watch a whole lot of TV or follow the news. I haven’t had a television in many years now, but I do chain myself to a laptop and a smart phone. It is almost a little difficult to bring back to mind what life was like before them.
ReplyDeleteOh, television! That's an interesting point, David. I so mention them watching things like Doctor Who and Strictly Come Dancing, which are big British cultural touchstones, but most it's that having your characters watch a lot of TV is just not very interesting.
Delete"do mention", I meant!
DeleteI think about the same things, but I've decided not to worry about them. Like you, the pandemic never happened in my books. I'm writing book 8 in the Laurel Highlands series now, and although it's been six years since the first book published, only about a year of "book time" has passed.
ReplyDeleteI try not to be too specific. But yes, there are some things - mostly technology - that is going to be out of date now and wasn't when I started. Oh well.
Yes, one thing I don't have to worry about when writing historical!
You have an interesting perspective, Liz, since you are writing both contemporary and historical.
DeleteI love your books so much. I notice obvious age progression and use of technology, but truly I am so involved in the story that those details slip by me. You are an excellent storyteller.
ReplyDeleteThank you so much!
DeleteAs Flora mentioned above, a "willing suspension of disbelief." I'm happy to let things ride along in flexible time like that. It works. Agatha Christie managed it for decades.
ReplyDeleteAfter all, the alternative for the author of a long-running series would be to keep their characters aging in real time, like Rebus, and soon run out of active years, or to keep the series set in precise months and years, and see time slipping further and further away from them, into the past, like Kinsey Milhone. I can't imagine how Sue Grafton kept her mindset solidly stuck in the 80s, unable to explore new events and ideas and attitudes.
Did Poirot and Miss Marple age at all? I never really thought about it before, so that's definitely a willing suspension of disbelief.
DeleteThis is so fascinating, Debs! I was talking to an author who sent me her manuscript, a novel set in 1983. I said to her – – why is the set in 1983? It doesn’t seem like it has to be, why not just make it contemporary? And she said she was trying to leave out all the technology that would be necessary in a contemporary a novel.
ReplyDeleteSomehow, that seemed contrived to me.
It was just for the author’s convenience, not for the story.
I try to make my books year-vague, too, —I just want them to feel that they are in the book-present . And then I calculate things based on that. “When she was in high school”, “eight years ago when it happened.” I never use cultural references, unless it is something like Gregory Peck, that is unchangeable. But even then, that’s a risk. And I don’t refer to the pandemic. I tried, I have to say, once referring to it, as being “over” – – and my editor took it right out . There’s no pandemic in the world of your books, she said.
Such a fascinating topic, Debs!
Hank, love “book present”! Never came across that phrase, but it so fits books that I enjoy reading the most. Thanks for the new vocabulary. Elisabeth
DeleteHank, I love "book present!" Thank you so much for the new descriptor!!!! And I'm glad to know that your editor felt that way about the pandemic, too.
Deletexoxoo It makes it so much more logical to write, you know?
DeleteFrom Diana: This post is going to be long!
ReplyDeleteReading FICTION with a “willing suspension of disbelief” makes it easier for me to enjoy reading.
However, I do have an issue when reading a story, supposedly set in modern times, meaning within the last few years.
For example, when I read “deaf and dumb” these days, that never fails to shock me because that was the usual term during the VICTORIAN era. When I was flying home from England in the late 20th century, I was shocked when an airport employee called me “Deaf and Dumb”. I found that concept so hilarious that I laughed. My private nickname for that airport employee was BIG TEETH. She has asked me if I could read lips. Being polite, I said No. Another employee, who was half American Native American and half British, was upset on my behalf.
Even in the mid 1990s in Washington, DC, which is the “deaf hub” because of a deaf college in DC = Gallaudet University’s students being Deaf and a minority of students are Hearing Graduate Students, there was a television station right in Washington D.C. where the news chief, believe it or not, really Believed that Deaf people were INCAPABLE of communicating! He did not really see the benefits of using Sign Language translators who can facilitate communication at all. I could easily imagine that news chief, as an author of fiction, writing “deaf and dumb” characters. Eye roll here. My philosophy is if the United Nations use translators for visiting diplomats, then why cannot the working world use Sign Language interpreters or captioning for Deaf people?
Now with more women, BIPOC? And LGBT authors these days, I expect more accuracy in characters written by these authors. Even in fiction.
Diana, I'm sorry to say that term was used later than Victorian times. I did a lot of biographical research into the actor Spencer Tracy. His son, born in 1924, was routinely referred to as "deaf and dumb" by outsiders in the 1920s and 1930s. :(
DeleteThat's a really good point, Diana.
DeleteThe term is routinely used my medical professionals today.
DeleteFrom Diana: Thank you, Debs!
DeleteSome authors include a note at the beginning the book, stating when the events are taking place. I seem to remember Sue Grafton doing that. As a reader, I find that to be really helpful.
ReplyDeleteDebRo
I think if you were keeping the stories in a specific time period, that would be helpful.
DeleteDefinitely, Deborah, they worry you more than they bother me. Perhaps, as I get older and time seems to fly, it is enjoyment of the years slowly passing for Gemma and Duncan and all. Their lives, their growth is fiction, a story not a history. Just please write faster! ;) Elisabeth
ReplyDeleteI know, I love the years passing so slowly, and these are the best years.
DeleteI don’t mind if I am reading a story which was written at an earlier time and makes a reference to things that would now be considered outdated because the information would have been accurate for when the author wrote it. I have read books in which the characters use both cell phones and landlines.
ReplyDeleteIt does get a little annoying when there is an ongoing reference to people not remembering to recharge their phones and it affects their ability to keep in contact with others.
If the author is writing a historical novel and inserts a real person or event that couldn’t have existed at that time, I feel that affects the whole story and its credibility and the author or editor should have done better research. I would not continue to read either that book or others written by them.
I have read several books which have included references to the pandemic. There is no explanation as to why it’s mentioned and is irrelevant to the story line. I don’t understand why the authors felt the need to do it
The pandemic is a very tricky thing and I debated whether or not to deal with it. But, as I said, it is such a fixed point in everyone's minds and experience--a time anchor--but the other reason was that the British experience was quite different from that of most Americans, and although I could read about it, and have many friends who experienced it, I didn't, and I didn't feel I could write about it authentically.
DeleteBut why even bother if it’s not relevant to the story plus it won’t have the same connection in the future to people reading a brief, passing reference it.
DeleteYou've never written anything that has jolted me out of the books' reality, Debs. Even if six years have gone by for your characters while thirty years of real time have passed, I have never noticed discrepancies. Common sense may tell you it's impossible, but in the world of your books, that doesn't matter. Good writing means good world-building, and you build a world around your characters that we all love and follow without question.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Kim!
DeleteI have a similar issue, Debs - my first book was published in 2001, but only six years have passed in Millers Kill. I have used contemporary issues, most noticeably the Iraq/Afghanistan wars, but since the American presence there went on for 15 years, that gives me a lot of leeway.
ReplyDeleteI keep an internal chronology for the books, so I know what year it supposedly is, but I try to keep details vague. For instance, in the current ms, one character says "They're putting it up on their site." Is it live streaming? Pictures? I'm not saying, so it can't be wrong for the past or too outdated for the future.
In total agreement on keeping the technology vague, Julia. We have to give them cell phones, but I don't go into much detail, and I'm definitely not giving everyone smart watches. I still have my detectives take notes in notebooks--partly because I think it would be incredibly irritating to have the detective doing an interview while tapping notes into a phone or tablet.
DeleteFrom Celia: to your point Julia, I wonder how many readers look at the year of publication. The only time I do is so I can read a series in order after I’ve enjoyed a book so much that I want to read the start and then follow the author. I started two or three books in with you. With Debs you loaned me A Bitter Feast, and I went on to read all before that just loving the stories, characters, detail etc. A strong tale is what I want with characters who are human and fallible. Debs, your writing on tea absolutely struck home as did Julia in One was a soldier. I shall bake and you shall write.
DeleteThank you, Celia! I'm so glad you enjoy them!
DeleteBook time is so different from real time. If some detail pops in that maybe doesn't belong, I don't worry too much about it if the story is good. I think that's the crux of it. A good story will erase or diminish little discrepancies. Pat D
ReplyDeleteI often notice the small things, but can forgive them completely if I love the story. And I love your stories, your settings and your characters so completely that I can for give a LOT! The last thing I want is for your characters to age, so please keep them floating!
ReplyDeleteFrom Celia: I think I am in agreement with my colleagues above. Off topic - not sure the best collective noun for our JRW commentators, colleagues, SM friends, lunching friends etc. so what do you think of A fiction of JRW’s? Back to topic - As Diana says this is fiction, and as Hank says, if one chooses a year then be true to it. Choosing the year because one doesn’t want to do the tech research is cheating in my book. So if the book is well written, the story gripping whatever the plot is. Then I’m all in. Unless Duncan or Jenna are getting a medal or Toby is in a Command performance, use whatever monarch you prefer!
ReplyDeleteI love your series and enjoy the ride!
ReplyDeleteI love the terms Annette and Hank have come up with, time-blind and book-present. These terms perfectly describe quite a few books and series that are favorites. It's funny, Debs and Julia and Annette, but I don't really notice what time in the world it is in your series. I am way too deep in the story for that to be in a focal point, and you don't make it a focal point. There are some fiction books that are absolutely about a certain time in history, and I expect them to be time and history accurate. Of course, that usually involves historical fiction or time travel books. And, when the books have more than one time period, I enjoy reading the differences is how things were and are, or how things are and will be. Debs, I do think that the times issue isn't something you should worry about.
ReplyDeleteI'm very forgiving of timelines, especially when I love the series as much as yours!
ReplyDeleteWhen reading historical fiction, I often confirm points in history with my husband, the expert on the subject and often times he elaborates on the point. For romance and mystery novels, it is not usually relevant and I mostly don’t concern myself with those details. So, please don’t worry about this issue so much! Alicia Kullas
ReplyDeleteSeeing this discussion, I thought back to an Andrew Greeley book in which the reader comes back to a story to find that the characters had continued their "lives" while he wasn't reading. They chastise him for thinking that they were just in limbo until his return. They were all "living" in their own time zones. Now I often think I need to return to my current choice of book before I miss something happening in my absence!
ReplyDelete