HALLIE EPHRON: Welcome to What We’re Writing week!
Recently I put together materials for a class I gave for the Writers Digest Mystery and Thriller Writers Conference. (I get to do it via Zoom from the comfort of my new desk chair!) I was talking about one of my favorite topics: character-driven plotting.
I usually start off quoting what I once heard Walter Mosley say. It went something like this:
STORY is what happened. PLOT is the order in which it’s revealed to the reader
I’m still chewing on his words. I think this is what he means…
STORY in a mystery novel is the crime: what led up to the crime (sometimes years or generations earlier), what the villain and suspects did and why. The pieces get revealed in dribs and drabs as the sleuth discovers them. It’s kind of like putting together a jigsaw puzzle that has no edges, the reader putting the pieces in place along with the sleuth.
PLOT is more about the sleuth’s journey. How they get involved in the investigation, why they care about the outcome, what they discover, what they discover about themselves, and how the investigation challenges and changes them. It's told sequentially.
That's one of the reasons why mystery novels are so hard to write: there are TWO stories. The investigation (the sleuth and their associates figure out what happened), told sequentially. The crime itself (what led up to it, what happened, who did it, and why), revealed as the sleuth puts the pieces together.
So… it’s complicated! And hopefully when you read one of our novels, you will be blissfully unaware of the two stories we’re trying to tell while keeping you bamboozled and finally gobsmacked when all is revealed.
Are you a fan of puzzling mysteries or do you prefer the adrenaline rush of a thriller, where you know who the villain is early on, and goal becomes beating the clock and keep the bad thing from happening again.
Although I will happily read either type of mystery, the puzzling mystery would be my preference. I enjoy trying to "figure it out" as the story unfolds . . . .
ReplyDeleteMe, too.
DeleteI enjoy reading all types of crime fiction.
ReplyDeleteI love puzzles and reading whodunits. But I also enjoy reading edge-on-your-seat thrillers.
It really depends on my mood.
I *used* to be able to do the edgey ones but these days I've turned into something of a wimp.
DeleteI enjoy figuring out the puzzle along with the character, so I like whodunits.
ReplyDeleteGood insight! That's what I would have guessed.
DeleteI’m a puzzle fan foremost and really only added thrillers to my reading a few years ago. I’ve come to enjoy them both.
ReplyDeleteCertain kinds of violence put me off, but I don't think that's a function of whether it's a puzzlibg or thrilling.
DeleteI like all kinds of mystery and suspense, but my favorite probably is a puzzle mystery.
ReplyDeleteThanks for clarifying that difference, Hallie.
ReplyDeleteI'm a mystery reader (and writer) all the way. I don't want to be on the edge of my seat for an entire book, especially not with fear as a passenger. At a library talk I did Saturday, somebody asked about reading Patricia Cornwell. I said I used to, until one book had the bad guy coming into her apartment window at night. I couldn't go to sleep and stopped reading her on the stop.
Edith, that’s it exactly.
DeleteI can't handle horror movies for the same reason. It's too easy for me to suspend disbelief!
DeleteYup we get a daily diet of anxiety day to day...
DeleteI love how the mystery/suspense/thriller genres have really started blurring the lines. I was on a crime fiction panel last year, and one of the thriller writers stated he wrote thrillers with a mystery in the middle. It was a bit of an epiphany for me because I realized I tend to write mysteries with a thriller at the end.
ReplyDeleteTo my mind, there is a huge difference between a mystery with moments of thriller and a thriller. Emotionally, the first feels like a sprint and the latter feels like a marathon -- and I don't have the stamina nor the desire to stay exhausted throughout the whole book.
DeleteExactly, Susan. And I agree w Annette too that so many "mystery" novels end with a thriller-y Act III.
DeleteI don’t know what you would call the writers who follow all the usual characters in every book, with a mystery, and then need to leave you with a hook to begin the next book (that you have to wait a year for!). Some of these are plot lines, and some are just wondering on the fate of someone who you have come to love – shall I suggest poor Kevin? These books often have an important detail/person in book 1, 2 or 6 – Julia Chapman does this in her Dales series, or have a character that you just wonder about, who might appear in several books that have gone before (Paige Shelton – can you trust the character or not), Then there are those who always push you forward into the next book – leaving your interest piqued and at the same time frustrated. (DeLeon, who makes me read the books so fast that I get tired reading – and can’t stop.) Of course, Louise Penny left me gob smacked in one of her early books with what happened to a friend – and then ended the book!
ReplyDeleteAs for suspense books – not my cup of tea. Don’t like lawyers either – need to use my brain too much.
Plot device called the Cliff Hanger. Some authors do it too much. I have stopped reading authors who use the cliff hanger device and then the next book does not come out for four years or more.
DeleteOh oh oh but it would be so nice if I KNEW what I was going to write next! What a luxury that would be, to have ideas stacked up like airplanes waiting to land at Logan.
DeleteI am generally not a fan of thrillers, although a little bit of thrilling action within the story might be okay. Thrillers always remind me of TV cop shows where as soon as a suspect is topped by the cops, he always, ALWAYS runs! So we have to have that chase. Usually, too, that is more of a time filler than anything else because that guy ends up not being THE guy. That isn't always the same with thriller books but they do seem to have more violence and less actual plot. Violence is not a plot but some authors and maybe their readers don't seem to know that.
ReplyDeleteAll that said, if one of my favorite authors writes a book, I will want to read it, even if it is a so-called thriller. I do like trying to figure out the perp using clues the author has provided.
And in the movies, the thrillers tend to be the big standalones; the whodunnits come in series with the sleuth at the center.
DeleteAlthough not generally explained well enough for the viewer to put the clues together, the Brit Box show called LUDWIG is an interesting tv show that has the main character who solves murders by using puzzles.
ReplyDeleteWe watched the first two episodes last night, so it was top of mind as I was reading this blog, and was thinking the same thing! His reasoning and observations are not anything the viewer could figure out.
DeleteLudwig also has a mystery within a mystery in that the main character (Ludwig) and his sister in law are looking for her husband (also Ludwig's twin brother) and solving crimes as they come up in the police station. It's hard to explain - hahaha!
DeleteAND the parallel between the missing brother/ missing father. Love Ludwig - watched the first episode last night when I started getting pinged from friends who said gottawatchit. Weirdly it did not bother me a bit that the reader couldn't have in a million years figured out whodunnit. Love the mail character. Especially adore the sister in law. So happy to have a new show to look forward to (tonight episode 2!)
DeleteI really wish they weren't dropping this week by week!!
DeleteThanks for this thoughtful analysis. I love the Mosely quote, which provides great food for thought. I like both kinds of mysteries, although I prefer the puzzles. All the adrenaline gets exhausting
ReplyDeleteYes, especially difficult all that adrenaline for those of us who like to read before turning off the light at night.
DeleteJerry's drawing is perfect for this entry, Hallie. You could illustrate your next book with them.
ReplyDeleteThis is fascinating, and probably why I struggled for so long to write a mystery: I was unaware of the need, or the mechanics of, writing two concurrent-ish stories.
I'm with Edith on the fear factor, especially the "fem jeop" type. I used to be able to read gratuitous violence/threats, but no longer can. In fact, I started listening to a Jocelyn Jackson recently, and it doesn't look as if I'm going to finish it because the antagonist is writing disturbing letters about dismembering the main character to her, a single woman with a neurodivergent adolescent. I have always loved her writing, but just no.
I'm sticking to the cozies and whodunits, thankyouverymuch.
I had the same thought about Jerry's drawing! It was perfect.
DeleteI love Jerry's drawings too (of course!) and I'm thinking of doing just what you suggest, Karen and Susan... But don't tell anyone.
DeleteJerry's drawings are so funny and silly, touching and heartwarming all at once! They certainly warm my heart when you share them, Hallie!
DeleteMy lips are sealed, Hallie. 😉
DeleteIf I pick up a thriller, thinking it's a mystery, I will often skip to the end right away--to see how the main character managed to stay alive. I love a good mystery, where all the information is there, but you're still surprised at the end. And when the author melds story and plot seamlessly--win-win!!
ReplyDeleteOh my goodness, I've been known to do the same thing. Particularly if I like a character and I want to be sure the author's not going to bump them off.
DeleteI do that too!! The suspense is toouch! 😀
DeleteHallie, what a great explanation! I am definitely now a puzzling mysteries reader. I love the characters and the stories (and maps, I love maps!) A little suspense is okay, but I’ve mostly wimped out on thrillers.
ReplyDeleteWimps R Us
DeleteYes, yes, so wise as always!
ReplyDeleteAnd remember, the author has to create the mystery and solve the mystery without the reader noticing that there is an author involved at all!
And I think the key to seamlessly braiding plot and story together is to ask yourself as an author: why do I care?
Why does this mystery demand to be solved— and not just professionally.
And I just read a fabulous review of Ludwig in the New Yorker! I do love it too, and wonder why Rhys’s name is in it :-) did you see? Deborah Crombie pointed it out to us yesterday.
And I love mysteries and I love thrillers. I don’t like super violence, but I am fine with tense suspense.
Hank: Yes, I asked the same question and Rhys responded that she has no connection to the show and doesn't know why her name is a character - so it must be a coincidence. Or as I said, maybe a writer on the show is a fan of Rhys' books!
DeleteBRAIDING - the perfect word for it Thanks, Hank
DeleteGreat process description, Hank!
DeleteI enjoy both, although I have been tending toward the mystery puzzle lately. I'm binging Deb's Kincaid/James series and enjoying it tremendously.
ReplyDeleteIt's so lovely when you're enjoying a book and know when you get to THE END there will be more waiting for you!
DeleteSo glad you're enjoying the books, Liz! That's such a compliment!
DeleteHallie, yes. No "Gosh, now I have to wait a year for the next one." I can have it as soon as I go to the library.
DeleteDebs, you're quite welcome. They didn't have book 4, to which the librarian said, "Huh, I'm going to have to fix that."
I like both, depending on the mood I'm in. My friends are always shaking their heads a the "blood and guts" books that I enjoy. I figure, these are folks doing things and having experiences that I can never in my wildest dreams have or do. When you've spent a lot of your life in the hospital or recovering from something that limits your activities, these books are life-energizing. Living vicariously through others via the words of a gifted writer. That being said, there are those times that a couple of general mysteries or cozies are just what is needed to soothe the battered soul. I am grateful there are writers who write each of these for my ever changing palate. -- Victoria
ReplyDeleteLife-energizing - a great word for it.
DeleteI far prefer the puzzle type of mystery. A period of intense suspense in the book is fine, if it is clearly in advancement of the plot, but I don't enjoy feeling on edge the entire time I'm reading a book. And I never, never, never want to live inside the head of a serial killer or sociopath.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it's my imagination, but to me it feels like the mystery genre has become more polarized in recent years. There are many lovely cozy mysteries, and many very popular thrillers, but fewer in-betweens. In particular, I always enjoyed a good police procedural, but those seem to have somewhat fallen out of favor.
My agent friends tell me police procedurals are back! That's the thing about the crime fiction business. What's hot one minute can be cold the next. Think about vampire mysteries... not nearly so hot at the moment as they once were (though they're still just as much fun.)
DeleteI certainly hope police procedurals haven't fallen out of favor!
DeleteDebs, you and me both! LOL
DeleteAnd me! I'm a straightforward police procedural writer!
DeleteCharacter-driven mysteries, though I save the latest Daniel Silva thriller for a transatlantic flight.
ReplyDeleteGood choice. And on audio so I don't have to schlep the book around with me in my suitcase.
DeleteI prefer a story that shows me something about human beings. One that highlights what a weird and inexplicable species we truly are, through a series of situations that entice, entertain, explore. It's all about the people (and occasionally critters) that inhabit the world--the living. I'm different than the mystery readers who focus on the puzzle--I want to experience the world through a set of eyes different from my own. So it's all about character with me, I guess.
ReplyDeleteThat sounds like a worthy goal for reading just about any novel of any genre.
DeleteHALLIE: I am a fan of puzzling mysteries. Character driven mysteries. Not a fan of thrillers though once in a blue moon there is a thriller that I can sink my teeth into.
ReplyDeleteI can reread The Girl with the Dargon Tattoo and still enjoy it.
Deleteperhaps because the woman is a very strong character, who refuses to be a victim?
DeleteI like character-driven stories, whether they're mysteries or not. I enjoy puzzle mysteries but as a reader of fiction my critical thinking skills are somnolent. I rarely pick up clues. It's the people I'm there for. As for thrillers: I like thrilling MOMENTS and even chapters but an all-out thriller book would be too much for me. I watch thriller TV shows sometimes with my husband (when the main characters are good people) but I close my eyes regularly and put my fingers in my ears to block the creepy music. When I'm reading, give me Russ and Claire fighting through the snow or struggling to keep their noses above the cold rising water or whatever. I trust Julia to save them in the end. I also can't bear stories that are too dark. Elizabeth George's later novels have tended in that direction and I've been afraid to try them. (Selden)
ReplyDeleteThis made me think about all the TV "mysteries" that I've only gotten halfway through. Books, too. It's the characters that make me soldier on to the end.
DeletePuzzle mysteries for me! Characters reveal a lot about themselves while working to solve a mystery. Although a good thriller will get the adrenaline going!
ReplyDeleteYes, puzzles make the characters reveal who they are.
DeleteGenerally I love puzzles/whodunits. I do read a few thrillers such as those by Daniel Silva. (I never really thought of Silva's books as thrillers. I think of it as a spy story.)
ReplyDeleteI like variety. With a modicum of blood and guts and a soupçon of F bombs. I also prefer recurring characters, not just the protagonist Like the pug in Jim Ziskin’s books.
ReplyDeleteForgive me if I’m rattled. Have just had two loads of family in the past couple weeks. First my daughter and s-I-l along with her son and his wife and four year old They left and a day later my son Chris came, along with his gorgeous three boys, who distinguished themselves by doing every single thing they were asked to do. Unusual for 16, 14, and 12 as I remember.
Hoping for biopsy report this week. Stay tuned
Ann
Best wishes for a good report, Ann!
DeleteOh, Ann - we're all rooting for you.
Delete"A modicum of blood and guts and a soupçon of F bombs" - Ha ha ha... just the kind of blurb I'd always hoped for, for one of my books.
I have been thinking about you, Ann. Thanks for giving us an update. Big hugs! x
DeleteI like the puzzle mysteries if it is possible to follow the clues. Death in Paradise (an Acorn British tv show) does this very well along with creating likable characters who have sub plots throughout the show.
ReplyDeleteSometimes mystery writers will produce a limited number of suspects and each has a motive and means to kill the victim. So often it's just a matter of discussing each suspect then at the end it's like throwing a dart and whomever it lands on is the killer.
I know. Then the "answer" feels like a parlor trick rather than OF COURSE, I SHOULD"VE SEEN IT COMING!
DeleteYes, that is so obvious, and very annoying. xx
DeleteI have never liked thrillers that have a lot of violence (especially against women) but that went out the window when I saw the movie "Girl With the Golden Tattoo" and was so intrigued that I went on to read all the books in the series. It was difficult to read but so captivating.
ReplyDeleteIt's a great great example. There's a reason it was such a best seller, made into several movies. It doesn't minimize its violence and has a thoroughly empowered protagonist.
DeleteI’ve liked most genres of mystery for most of my life. At some point I realized that I wasn’t so much interested in “whodunnit”, but in the WHY the person did it. I really enjoy paying attention to the personalities of the characters. In the last couple of years I stopped reading a particular series that I formerly loved, because I was tired of the protagonist making the same mistakes over and over. If it was someone I knew in real life, I would urge the person to see a therapist!
ReplyDeleteThere was a series I briefly followed, but had to stop reading because of gratuitous violence. I can’t remember if the protagonist was a private investigator or a police detective. He had no trouble with pulling out a gun to solve a problem. As I’m typing this, I’m remembering that he was a private investigator. The plots were really interesting but I didn’t want to get inside the minds of any of the characters, including the protagonist. In the last book that I read, there was so much gratuitous violence that I almost got sick to my stomach. Give me all the books that the JRW writers write!
DebRo
I agree with you Deb about too much violence... so why do I still like Silence of the Lambs - the book and the movie.
DeleteI read that Martha Stewart said she, "Dated Anthony Hopkins in the 1990s, but ended the relationship because she couldn't separate him from his portrayal of Hannibal Lecter in 'The Silence of the Lambs.' "
DeleteI enjoy both puzzle mysteries and thrillers. The quality of the writing is the main thing I look for in any book. Good character development is important to me in either type, and I enjoy following the story arc of recurring characters in a mystery series. A bit of humor is always welcome as well, although some of my favorite authors write very serious books.
ReplyDeleteWell placed humor can go a long way toward making a book enjoyable. It's tricky, though, I admire any other hwo can wield it successfully
DeleteI recall Anne Perry saying that when the culprit is revealed, it should be a surprise, unexpected... but then the reader thinks, "Oh, I didn't see that coming, but it makes sense!"
ReplyDeleteSO agree!
DeleteI used to read thrillers when I was younger, but think the “real” world with all of its violence and injustice has taken the fun out of it. (The word fun is used sarcastically, in case anyone worries about my sanity…) I enjoy mysteries of all kinds, especially the character driven ones (see Julia’s or Deb’s series for great examples). Puzzle-type mysteries are great, though I join Margo in the somnolent feeling of not being very good at solving the puzzles before the end of the book. And, like Grace, it depends on my mood as to what kind of mystery I want to read at that moment. — Pat S
ReplyDeleteHallie, this post was so timely for me. I've known the bare bones of my current book's "story" from the very beginning. But trying to translate that into "plot" is so hard!!
ReplyDeleteDEBS: Do you know who the killer is from the beginning or does the identity of the killer evolve as you write the story?
DeleteHallie, I’ve told you many times before how much I love Jerry’s drawings and want to see them in a book. The topic of whimsy the other day describes the drawings perfectly. Wonderful whimsy.
ReplyDeleteI guess you can count me in the whimps club, too. I’ve now distanced myself from violent books and most thrillers. I’ve become a puzzle mystery person, enjoying the characters, especially repeating ones, so much.
I agree Kathy, his drawings are strangely enchanting. I say strangely because they aren't the most artistic but there is something about them that is so appealing.
DeleteHallie, I, too, love the idea that we're writing two stories, one on the surface with the detectives and on suggested only by clues until all becomes clear at the end. As so many others have said, I like complex characters that develop throughout the book and the series and interesting puzzles (but not too many twists, especially the unrealistic kind.) But every once in the while I read a thriller and enjoy it. I'm about to try THE MAILMAN--I think that's a thriller. I'll see what I think.
ReplyDeleteSorry I’m late to the party. It was A DAY! I love this post, Hallie! I’m definitely a puzzler!
ReplyDeleteJenn ^
ReplyDelete