LUCY BURDETTE: Sometimes I feel like I must either know every detail of a real setting, or else make it up entirely. With either approach, I would be much less likely to make mistakes. But alas, that’s not the path I chose when I began writing the Key West mysteries. An early writing friend suggested after reading the first book that maybe I’d be better off using a fictional town so I wouldn’t have to worry about geographical or other errors. (In An Appetite for Murder, for one small example, Olivia St. goes in the wrong direction.) It’s not unusual for a restaurant that Hayley visits in one book to go out of business in real life. Sigh.
I was invited recently to a meeting of the Big Pine Key library book group—the members had all read the book and were ready to discuss. After a lot of friendly conversation, one man said, “we did wonder where you got the ravine.” This made me realize that on an island made of coral, the chances of finding the deep ravine that I described were pretty much zero. I explained that I needed that ravine for the story, and we had a good laugh.
I won’t spoil it by telling you the details, but you will recognize them when you get there. Here’s what led up to the ravine scene:
“When the camp was cleared out not long after Veronica disappeared, you can imagine the trash that had been left behind. Everything those kids no longer needed they discarded as if the backcountry was a giant dump. Monroe County sent a front loader to scrape some of it into the ravine behind the camp and take the rest of it to the real dump on Stock Island. But that altar, it was back in the trees. I hadn’t remembered it until now.”
“You think it could actually still be there?”
“Could be,” he said, squinting his eyes at me.
My excitement was mounting. “Could you point me in the right direction so I could see if anything’s left?”
I’ve also made character mistakes, urging characters to make choices that really didn’t fit them or do them any favors. When people are about to start the first book in the series, I say in a breezy voice that they need to remember that Hayley Snow improves over the course of the series. That she is a little immature in the first book and makes some poor choices. But that will get better as it does for many of us as we grow up, and that’s one of my favorite parts of writing a long series!
What kinds of errors in books bother you, or are you happy to read past them?
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To be honest, errors don't particularly bother me unless they are so obvious as to pull me out of the story . . . actually, I expect writers will take some license so that their story "works" . . . [And, island or not, the ravine doesn't bother me at all!]
ReplyDeleteJoan, I think it bothered them because they live on Big Pine and know it's not possible!
DeleteI agree with Joan, it doesn't bother me. Many authors of fiction will take license with the location of streets, the existence of a ravine, the date of the delivery of penicillin in WWII. Sometimes they explain the change in an afterword to their readers and I appreciate that.
ReplyDeleteAs for Hayley growing and maturing from book to book, that is very noticeable. I hate to include spoilers but agree with the reader who told you that Hayley needed a better love interest than you first gave her. (Edith had to switch out a boyfriend in her early Pans and Pancakes books and that was also a big improvement.)
Thanks, Judy! That wasn't by design, it's just that Abe walked in and Robbie liked him better...
DeleteJudy, Hayley was like me when she was younger--never had the sense to choose the good guy!
DeleteHaving never been to most of the places I read about I would never know if a street was going in the wrong direction or a restaurant no longer exists. I think I do feel more connected to the book if it is set in a real place that ai have been to with icons that I recognize.
ReplyDeleteBrenda, I always enjoy reading fiction set in a place I'm going to visit!
DeleteThat too.
DeleteWhen authors explain in a note before the book starts that they’ve taken liberties with locations described in the book I’m fine. But sometimes a real place is described so incorrectly that I cringe. One book I read placed a town I’m quite familiar with about one hundred miles away from its actual location. I’m sure it didn’t bother people who knew nothing about the town, but I was about ready to throw the book across the room!
ReplyDeleteDebRo
that makes sense Deb--if you know a place well, mistakes stick out.
DeleteI certainly missed the ravine error! Probably because in Pennsylvania we have lots of them. Usually my eye just sees the typos.
ReplyDeleteOh Typos! usually by the time someone writes me about one, I've read the manuscript dozens of times and it's too late to fix.
DeleteIf I don't know the real town or place, I wouldn't notice any errors (your ravine, for example). I do always notice anachronisms in historical works, especially in language, and it bothers me.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I've used fictionalized real towns for all my contemporary mysteries so I can make it all up but real ones in the historical novels.
that's an interesting distinction Edith!
DeleteEDITH: I agree with everything you said! I was going to say the same thing in my comments.
DeleteI became a lot more forgiving of mistakes when I started writing...and making quite a few of my own! Thankfully, my critique buddies often catch them for me.
ReplyDeleteAs for the ravine, I think that fits in the "I Write FICTION" category, Lucy.
Thank goodness for writing group pals!
DeleteAbsolutely.
DeleteIt's an interesting question! I just read a book set in Portland, and the author took some license with the facts. I kind of liked his creation of a Catholic religious community who lived on the edge of Forest Park. Other errors weren't so benign. The protagonist got his library degree from Portland State in the '50s (or maybe '60s)--this greatly disturbed my sister and me, as PSU has never had a library program. In the decades he mentioned, it was Portland State College, a pretty small urban institution. The education piece was really only mentioned in passing, so he could have just sent the character to Seattle for a year or two at UW (that's what my mom did).
ReplyDeleteI also have to be humble. One error that bugged me in a plot line turned out to be an error on the reader's part. I had missed a line that explained why one character knew something I thought they shouldn't know.
That's where I've run into trouble too, Gillian--readers who know Key West intimately can notice more tiny problems
DeleteHere's a cheer for PSU! My son-in-law is an English professor there.
DeleteWhat kind of mistakes bother me? Well, since I read for the story not to see how or how many times an author (or proofreader, editor, etc.) screws up something in a book, I'd say any mistake that I actually catch would be bothersome. But it is very few and far between that I catch something so I almost always read past any error.
ReplyDeleteHaving been asked a couple times to read either unedited manuscripts or the ARC before it is locked, I have caught some tiny things that I mentioned to the author so it could be fixed. My favorite tied into my love of comic books because in the ARC the character was referred to as Spiderman...and any comic fan worth their salt knows it is Spider-Man.
The BIGGEST mistake I've ever seen which would likely be the most bothersome one I've ever seen was one I think I've mentioned on here before. That was when the state of Maine was somehow placed on the coast of the PACIFIC Ocean. Talk about an "OOPS!"
I love reading how Hayley has grown and matured over the years. In fiction, I don't mind location mistakes unless they are obvious like placing popular locations in the wrong place. (Placing Maine of the Pacific Ocean as Jay pointed out is a whale of a mistake!)
DeleteMy husband reads historical WWII and he is always amazed how many history dates, locations, insignias/uniform errors, etc.
thanks for that comment! Jay, I like your approach. Yes, putting Maine on the West Coast would bother me too:)
DeleteJay, I read your Maine on the Pacific comment to my husband, who immediately said, “Not any more; they moved it”! — Pat S
DeleteThat is definitely a BIG OOPSIE!
DeleteThinking about the size of the moving van needed to move the state of Maine 3500 miles. Which is what would preoccupy me if I read such a thing in fiction, rather than anything else.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I give fiction authors a lot more grace for poetic license than I do nonfiction ones. Serving a made-up story is fine with me; fudging details of real-life events, places, and people is sacrilege.
that distinction makes sense. Although I bet there's lots of fudging going on because of the big trend toward retelling older stories?
DeleteGeez, I hope not.
DeleteThe thing that bothers me tremendously is the use of "a hundred yards'. "I could see the glint in her eyes from a hundred yards away". NO, YOU CAN'T! That's a football field away. I emailed an author who used this phrase at least once and sometimes more in each and every of his 15 books. He replied within 20 minutes which shocked me and said the character had excellent eyesight!
ReplyDeleteLOL! Twenty minutes is pretty fast for a reply to email:)
DeleteSnort! No one has eyesight that good!
DeleteIn the James Fenimore Cooper's hero Natty Bumppo was supposed to be able to shoot a rifle accurately from 300 yards away (three football fields, mind you), Mark Twain famously made outrageous fun of this in an essay that picked Cooper's Deerslayer series apart in the most hilarious way possible.
I tend to be a forgiving reader unless there's a glaring geographical error. But you made me realize something I'm now missing by reading mainly ebooks: the eagle-eyed mystery reader who corrects mistakes in the margins of library books! One avid reader in my hometown library would take all of her margin notes and copy them onto the inside cover, with suggestions! "If on page 22 the MC's dress is blue, and on page 36 it's green, perhaps the author should consider teal in her next book?" Whoever the anonymous editor was, she made teenaged me a more careful reader!
ReplyDeleteMary, did you know that with a Kindle (not sure about other ebooks) that you can note errors? And suggest how to correct them? I don't know if the errors actually do get fixed in later editions but at least you can point them out.
DeleteI correct stuff all the time, mostly typos. No idea if it gets done tho
DeleteI've never heard of that--certainly no one at the publisher has sent those on to me. But I have no idea whether they get fixed in the ebook edition.
DeleteI notice so many typos in e-books that I hope aren’t in the paper books! — Pat S
DeleteI give fiction writers a lot of slack unless they've chosen to make a particular subject integral to the story. In my case, the archaeologists can certainly be the bad guys, but at least get the details of what they do and where they're working reasonably close to reality. We aren't all Indiana Jones or greedy fly-by-night companies looking to make a buck at the expense of cultural history, the environment, etc. Meanwhile, I'm researching the background for a historical novella that I'm working on and I want the details to enrich the story--when would many American homes have had a radio? What clothing was popular for teens in the late 1930s, early 1940s? Was there a bus or train that could take you from Eastern Kentucky to North Carolina in April, 1942? All of the details might not make it into the story, but they paint a picture in my mind of what my characters were doing, what their world was like. (Flora)
ReplyDeleteIt depends on the book. If it’s a fun romp loosely set in a town but is given fictitious churches or restaurants that’s fine. If it’s London and trains go from the wrong station it makes me mad. If I’m writing real history it has to be correct. Every detail.
ReplyDeletefor me, it's sometimes a grammar usage typo. other times it's a character that's out of place in that particular moment. like talking about a situation that's happening now, but that character died 3 days ago.
ReplyDeleteNow that's a serious blooper!
DeleteSO funny! I had a tiny inconsequential moment in one fo my books where the character Jane is wary of the turkey sandwich she'd left on her desk for four hours--she worried that the mayo would have spoiled. And angry reader wrote to me, outraged at my error,. "It's not the mayo that would spoil," she fumed at me. "It's the turkey."
ReplyDeleteI thanked her politely, and reminded her that whatever the reality, JANE thought the mayo would spoil.
Good example Hank, I wonder if she understood about Jane?
DeleteI remember a review I read by a reader who was most upset about an event she read about in a novel. The book was about a tsunami that wiped out a town on the coast of Australia. The reader really carried on because she (or maybe it was he) had researched that and discovered that the event had not really happened. She went on and on. Others who read her comments asked if she knew what fiction meant. That just made her madder.
ReplyDeleteI think it is best to write about fictional places unless you are absolutely spot on with everything if it's set in a real place. I'm the kind of person who would look at a map and follow along, noting rivers and such. I'm thinking of Julia's books in Millers Corners, is it? A fictional town, but in the Adirondacks, which is real. And real things, such as the Northway, are mentioned. She has characters say how long it would take to drive to Albany or Syracuse. So, on my map, I can get a pretty good idea of where that fictional place is, in relation to actual places. I think it frustrates me that it is not a real place, because she writes it so well that I want it and her characters to be real.
If I were to read about a fictional place in an area unfamiliar to me, I would have fewer problems! It has been a long time since I've been to Key West, so Lucy, you can say almost anything in your descriptions and I won't have trouble believing them.
Oops, that should be Millers Kill. Sorry, Julia.
DeleteThanks Judi LOL
DeleteLUCY: Like Edith, I notice anachronisms in books. Sometimes the author's note will explain why. Though I do notice things like that, I usually let it pass since I know that I am reading FICTION. However, if the character is deaf and the author writes as if the character can hear someone talking from another room, then I do point it out. Before I got my cochlear implants, I never could understand how a deaf person could talk. Now I see how they can do that - with auditory TRAINING and constant input.
ReplyDeleteThere is an error that throws me off as a reader. I may have mentioned this before. When I was reading a new series, the fiance was named Gavin in the first book. The fiance became the groom in the second book and the name was changed to Nigel without any explanation!
HANK: Though I see what this person meant about the turkey, I agree with what you said about JANE thought the mayo would spoil. IRL, I had the experience of getting sick after eating a turkey sandwich with mayo. We went to a deli, near campus. The mayo was NOT in the refrigerator, meaning that when I ordered a turkey sandwich, they made the sandwich at the counter. The mayo had been sitting out all day!
I think my eye is trained, as I've done proofreading of one book and a lot of websites through the years. Anything to do with math that doesn't make sense, bothers me. It usually relates to the ages of the characters and their parents, schooling, etc. If someone is a product of the "Swingin' Sixties" for example and yet seem to have children in their teens, or Mom's age figures out to be 12 years older than the daughter. Also, an author whose various series I have read, and generally enjoy, always has a character who "took a bite, chewed, and swallowed." I've even checked my Kindle for how many times it's said in a particular book. Too many! I think that whole line is implied when someone is eating! I'm glad to hear that some authors are open to being told when there are errors, in case a subsequent printing could fix them. Only once I wrote to a favorite author after reading that a character was away in another state and on the next page they were standing on the porch. The author was rude basically saying, "S**t happens; get over it." Never read another one of her books. Another very successful author has in the author notes to not bother sending errors, because "someone already has, undoubtedly." All this being said, I LOVE the Key West mysteries and the ravine issue isn't a problem with me :)
ReplyDeleteOh good, phew! someone sent me two errors this week from the upcoming THE MANGO MURDERS. One was a misspelling, the other a missing word. I was able to send them on to the publisher because it hasn't yet been printed.
DeleteLucy, historical accuracy matters more to me than which way a street runs. I spend a lot of time making sure words, technology, and details fit the period. As for location, Key West has such a strong identity and is so well-known, even to people who haven’t been there, that it makes perfect sense to use it as a setting. Readers are drawn to its unique atmosphere. I’m glad you didn’t change its name. I may have been the one who gave you that bad advice, and if so, I apologize. Like Hayley, we all grow with experience.
ReplyDeleteNo need to apologize Ang:). As you know, I'm pretty stubborn.
DeleteThis is bringing back memories... a key plot point in There Was an Old Woman is in 1945 when a B-52 bomber crashed into the Empire State building ni heavy fog. The problem was with the way I described the jet's engine ... oops, I did it again. Many readers pointed out that in1945 it would not have been a jet engine. Or I think that was their point. Anyway I've steered clear of describing airplane accidents in too much clinical detail ever since.
ReplyDeleteLucy, I love that your books have so many real places -- it adds an extra diension of fun to a Key West visit.
sometimes we don't know what we don't know! Thanks Hallie. I love it when people follow the restaurants I mention. One reader told me her husband insisted on breakfast at one place and she told him, that's not where Hayley Snow would eat. (Apparently it wasn't much good!)
DeleteMinor geographical errors don’t bother me, especially if the author has acknowledged that they have made some alterations to reality for the sake of the story. Major errors, geographical or otherwise, definitely do bother me! Scientific errors are the most off putting for me. For example, in one mystery I read a character heard thunder before the lightning! And in another mystery, a character was sneaking about just after midnight under a moonless sky, and then the full moon rose. Well, take it from an old Earth Science teacher, full moons always rise about an hour after sunset! That put me off from that author. Anachronisms also bother me, but It’s fine for an author to rearrange history a bit for the sake of the story as long as they tell me up front that they are doing it. I just don’t want someone being cured with a shot of penicillin in 1870!
ReplyDeletegood points Claire!
DeletePaula B. Here: I’ve followed a particular writer through all “umpteen” books in his series. He killed off a bad guy in one book and then a few books later, the dude returned and he killed him off again. Was my memory faulty? I spent time going through prior books and yup, he was dead before he was killed again. I wasn’t annoyed. I was delighted that my memory worked! I sent an email to the writer who answered in a day or two. He was very gracious and a bit funny in his reply. He’s still a favorite author. I never miss a book.
ReplyDeleteWhat a nice interaction--hurray for both reader and writer!
DeleteI recall an error in an early book that came about because my mental image of a character wasn't right. I had a 'diocesan deacon' (a position that doesn't really exist, but it plausible) getting up the Rev. Clare's nose because I wanted her to be in a precarious position with her bishop, but I wanted to avoid actually showing him at all costs. The Bishop of Albany is a real person, so you can understand why I needed a stand-in instead!
ReplyDeleteHowever, my mental image of the deacon was, well, a bishop. So when he's attending a dressy event, he appears wearing a purple clerical shirt.
The majority of you who aren't Catholic or Episcopalian wouldn't blink, but in our denominations, bishops - and ONLY bishops - wear purple as part of their clerical attire. You would not BELIEVE the number of comments and emails I've gotten about that screw-up over the years.
As for details throwing me out of the story, it's usually not geographic stuff (like a ravine where there is none) even in places I know well. It's more likely to be characters doing things that are, for lack of a better term, wrong. I was reading a book where the protagonist, the single mother of a two-year old, gave her toddler aspirin for a fever. Aspirin! IYKYK. I closed the book and never picked it up again.
Julia, I did notice the purple shirt (Catholic here). But it wasn't big enough to ruin the story for me.
DeleteI wouldn't notice the purple shirt Julia!
DeleteHe obviously was a very uppity deacon!
DeleteNot being Catholic, I would never have noticed the purple shirt error.
DeleteIf the error pulls me out of the story, that bothers me. Especially if it's something easy to look up. For example, I read a book set in Pittsburgh that referred to "Central Catholic girls in their plaid skirts." Fine - except Central Catholic is an all-boy's high school. The girls' school is Oakland Catholic. I know - because my kids went there. It's more noticeable if I know the location well, as Edith said. But restaurants going out of business or even the occasional street going the wrong way? That isn't a big deal for me. The latter usually gets a chuckle.
ReplyDeleteHistorically, you should get the major facts straight and check your language. Anachronisms do bother me because again, these things are fairly easy to check. The internet isn't all cute cat videos!
That reminded me of an episode from BH 90210 many years ago when I was in high school /college. Brenda’s mother was excited because her friend claimed that her son went to Harvard (meaning the University) and that Brenda’s friend was invited. Somehow the mothers set up a double date for Brenda and her girlfriend. Turns out the friend’s son and his friend went to Harvard MIDDLE school. Brenda asked her mother if they were supposed to BABYSIT the boys? Brenda’s mother was surprised and she apologized. I remember that episode very well.
DeleteLucy, that ravine mistake wouldn't bother me at all; I wouldn't even notice it. But now that most writers have access to computer search engines, spelling and grammar checking programs, translation apps, etc. etc., I am shocked by egregious history, geography, and, for lack of a better word, culture mistakes (wrong food, wrong names, wrong behavior). Of course, I'm particularly annoyed when the mistakes have to do with Switzerland. I just started listening to a book with a Swiss woman in it called Gretchen, which is a uniquely German nickname for Margarete, since Swiss German doesn't use -chen as a diminutive; it uses -li. I know this isn't a big deal, and I will continue to read and enjoy the book, but it's so easy to type "ten most common Swiss girls' names" into Google now---why would anyone make this mistake when it's so simple to get correct info? I suppose the problem is that we don't know when we don't know something--we think we DO know it, so we don't look it up.
ReplyDeleteI want to make my "Gretchen" comment sound less ridiculously picky by pointing out how we'd laugh if a Japanese writer called her all-American hero "Nigel."
Deletethat's exactly what I was thinking Kim, sometimes we don't know what we don't know!
DeleteAs a former travel agent, it bothers me when characters are flying somewhere at a time that flights between the two cities don't operate. The information is readily available on any travel website. Do your research! This applies to TV and movies as well.
ReplyDeleteYou have special knowledge that we might not have, so you would notice. I suppose it would have to first come up as a question in the writer's mind?
DeleteMy new book is about a book tour, and it has lots of travel times and connections--I tried to be so careful about it! And time zones, too. My poor copy editor!
DeleteOh yeah, time zones!
DeleteI recently read a wonderful book based on a real 18th century midwife. Every single detail about birthing babies was correct except one.
ReplyDeleteShe never ever not one time clamped or tied off the cord before cutting it. Not one time. It would have been so easy for an early reader nurse to catch that error.
Interesting. Did it keep you from enjoying the book?
DeleteI get a bit perturbed if the author doesn't do a minimum amount of research when writing about a real place. Everyone knows New Orleans is flat and below sea level. No hills except manmade ones in parks. No basements. They'd fill up with water. And yet an author set up a mansion on a hill with numerous cellars in New Orleans. Maybe they built that hill so they could have cellars, but I don't think the neighbors would have gone along with that.
ReplyDeleteLOL Pat, we are inventive creatures!
DeleteI catch typos and anachronisms — IF it’s something I am particularly interested in or know about. Most of the time I just believe that the author has it right. I did read a book about six months ago where the author completely changed a character’s name from one chapter to the next. That one threw me because I couldn’t remember any character with that name. With e-readers, you can search for a word or name so it was easy for me to verify the error. I usually just mutter to myself and keep reading! — Pat S
ReplyDeleteIf the book is set in a location I know well, I hate obvious typos/errors that an author & editor should have caught & corrected. For example, Toronto's main street is spelled YONGE St., not YOUNG St.!
ReplyDeleteI am most bothered by typos, grammar errors, and simple fact errors (like saying a hockey game has quarters…). I’m okay with playing fast and loose with geography as long as the author mentions it ahead of time. It’s even a bit of extra fun when a book is set in a place I know and I can picture it all in my head.
ReplyDeleteI have come to accept that there will always be errors in my work and other authors. I believe most of us do our best so I am a very forgiving reader :)
ReplyDeleteFor the most part I am less bothered with an implausible event in fiction. Errors in non fiction are different. The facts are supposed to be verified or at least corrected in an footnote.
ReplyDeleteI am in support of pronouns for the LGBTQ community. But it is difficult when I read something like "they" left the house ... when the house was empty of any other people. I have to go back several pages to try to find who else was in the house that I missed. Sometimes you can figure out the "they" is just one character (let's say) Jane Doe but often times if there are a lot of characters it can be very confusing.
ReplyDeleteYour books have so many real places like Hallie mentioned, but I love that so many real people who live in Key West are featured in your series. Like the police chief, the taro card reader (my fav!), various restaurant owners, a couple of street people, and so many others. I also like that in your acknowledgments you mention these real people and their characters by name. It makes the reader feel a part of the community. It also gives you street credit as someone who is actually part of the community.
ReplyDeletethanks for those comments, and for reading!
DeleteI was very put off in a well-regarded novel several years ago where people who were riding in a train on D-Day (June 6, 1944) were listening to real-time news coverage of D-Day on their transistor radios. Which did not exist until after 1947.
ReplyDelete